restored Messerschmitt Bf 109 E4 WN 3579

[Batz]

Originally posted on the German WWIIOL forum

Full article Here

What I found interesting is in Flight 7 center of the page where he mentions roll rate and dive speed.

@ 660kph  "was extremely smooth and stable"

Kinda reminded me of F4UDOA's comment "locked in concrete above 400mph"

Anyway its a good read.

[Bluefish]

I've had to "hold short" for that plane a couple times in Chino; it is indeed beautiful (in a sinister sort of way).  It's interesting that he describes it as being so docile-I was always under the impression that 109s were a real handful, particularly to land.

[Hawklore]

I say they replace the nazi symbol with the peace sign, or basicly the reversed swastika.

[moot]

now it'd be great if they did the same with a late model.

[GRUNHERZ]

So the roll rate is at least 50% faster than a Spitfire MkV...  Ahh I think we need to adjust the AH Bf109E4 as it currently rolls like bomber....

BTW this very airframe was flown by no less a pilot than Hans Joachim Marsailles!

[Glasses]

You know when I went to chino in August I was looking and looking for this airplane and never saw it . I even asked the souvenier shop keeper if they had it and she just gave me a list of aircraft in there and the ones being restored including a Buchon 109.

Looks really cool I wanted to see it up close maybe next time

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Glasses
You know when I went to chino in August I was looking and looking for this airplane and never saw it . I even asked the souvenier shop keeper if they had it and she just gave me a list of aircraft in there and the ones being restored including a Buchon 109.

Looks really cool I wanted to see it up close maybe next time

That's cause David Price had to sell it.  Paul Allen has this bird now in Washington, although there is talk that it may be sold to a Canadian who made a ton of money off a lawsuit against Disney.  He owns a Spit IX and is after a Hurricane and 109 as well.

Dan/Slack

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Bluefish
I've had to "hold short" for that plane a couple times in Chino; it is indeed beautiful (in a sinister sort of way).  It's interesting that he describes it as being so docile-I was always under the impression that 109s were a real handful, particularly to land.

The 109 was difficult to land because of the "toe-in" of the landing gear that would amplify any swing or turn when on the ground. In the air everyone who has flown it says it's a beautiful plane to fly, very responsive and easy to handle.

[F4UDOA]

50% faster at 450KPH 279MPH is not exactly a glowing endorsement.

The locked in concrete is a quote from the JG26 war diaries I believe. You will have to take that up with the Luftwaffe.

[Batz]

Did you even read it? It says minimum looping speed is 450KPH and gives no speed what so ever for roll rate.

The locked in concrete is quote from you,  

I have never seen anything to indicate that a 109 of any sort is any less that locked in cement at 400MPH +. It may be fast but if you can't maneuver at those speeds you are dead anyway.

Regardless of what Caldwell wrote in his JG26 Diaries the 109E control responses were not any better then the K.

Theres no need to rehash it. You say you never read anything that indicates a 109 sort is any less that locked in cement at 400MPH +. Well read above .....

[Glasses]

Don't let the facts get in the way...

I think many of the assumptions we have about the 109 in high speed flight  in flight sims started to get debunked with IL2 Sturmovik. Apparently the 109 although had heavier control was very much controlable at higher speeds. NOt as fast as the 190 but close.

[F4UDOA]

Huh?

Actually the locked in Cement quote was from Kit Carson at 400MPH.

I know you don't wan't to hear it from the RAF or an American fighter pilot but there it is.

And yes I read your artical. It says very cleary that he climbed and reached a speed of 440KPH (273MPH)and performed the following test. Rate of roll etc. Sounds pretty specific to me.

In fact Kit Carson said the 109 rolled very well at 250MPH so in fact he agrees with your artical.

As far as the JG26 war diaries the quote is not from Caldwell it is from Georg Genth 109K4 combat pilot who states ""Control forces were so great that I could not center the stick, so I cletched both hands together and strcuk the side of the stick as hard as I could. The unblievable happened- the brave old 109 flipped over into a normal steep descent attitude."

This corresponds with Kit Carson remarkes very well.

If you could provide a roll chart it would help very much toward your arguement.

[GScholz]

Why Col. "Kit" Carson was wrong.

[Batz]

No speed for roll rate is given.

In "Flight Seven" there is an alphabetical listing of the tests performed.

a. -
b. Maximum achieved speed at 3.0km, 1.15 ata / 2500 rpm = 440kmh IAS.
c. -
d. Roll rate
e. -

He could have even been well slower then 440kmh so we don’t know. Do you know the roll rate of a spit 5? If not how do you know if a 50% increase in roll claim is a "glowing endorsement" or not?

That’s not "my argument" anyway.

From 3.0km during the VNE dive he reached 660kmh. He described it as "smooth and stable" and stated he was "only limited by his altitude". He makes no mention of stick forces and certainly if the controls felt like they were "locked" in concrete he would have commented on it.

You claim you never saw anything to indicate that a 109 of any sort is any less then locked in cement at 400MPH. Well there you go.

Control forces were so great that I could not center the stick, so I cletched both hands together and strcuk the side of the stick as hard as I could. The unblievable happened- the brave old 109 flipped over into a normal steep descent attitude.

Without the correct context (speed alt etc) the above quote means very little.

[F4UDOA]

Three things.

1. If you can not deflect the ailerons without slamming both your hands against the stick for movement of the ailerons then they are non-maneuvable.

2. And yes I have a very detailed roll chart comparing the P-36, P-40 and Spit from 1941 (DSIR23/12177).

There is no Mark listed but I believe the V is a 1941 version and no changes in rolling without clipping the wings.

The roll rate shown at 250mph is 60dps and decreasing. This is not outstanding and there is no rate of roll listed for your 109. So 50% is a best guess. He was probably in the 85DPS range which is good but not really high speed.

3. Georg Genth does list speed. It is somewhere between 466MPH and 310MPH at 1,600FT. I just don't feel like typing the entire paragraph. In either case it is not maneurable. And this is a K-4, 466MPH is supposed to be barely above top speed.

You wouldn't happen to have any roll documents would you?