Author Topic: Yak-9U Performance (again)  (Read 800 times)

Offline Bullethead

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« on: November 30, 2003, 04:57:18 PM »
Last year, I began to question the amazing flight performance of the Yak-9U in AH.  I didn't know anything in detail about Yaks but it just seemed a bit uber to me.  I was assured, however, by some folks purportedly more knowledgeable that it flies in AH at least as well as it did in real life.  I still didn't buy it, so have spent the time since then trying to learn more about Yaks in general and the 9U specifically, as well as doing some controlled tests in AH.

I have come to the following conclusions:
  • That the 9U's level speed in AH is very close to that of the stats I can find.  So no room for complaint there.
  • That the 9U's climb in AH is a bit worse than the stats I can find, but is probably about right all things considered.
  • That the 9U's turn performance in AH is a bit better than the stats I can find, but that's probably because I can pull more Gs than were possible in real life.
  • That the 9U's dive performance in AH is WAY better than it was in real life, so should be considered seriously bugged.
I got my real-life data from Red Star series #5, Yakovlev's Piston-Engined Fighters, by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Khazanov, translated by Sergey Komissarov, published in 2002.  It uses Russian primary sources exclusively and has a lot of detail in how various real-world test data were obtained, so that I could duplicate the procedures in AH.  So I think these numbers are probably about as good as any you can find on this plane (and other Yaks, for that matter).

ENGINE
The Yak-9U was powered by the VK-107A engine.  This engine was rushed into production long before it was ready, so had a lot of SERIOUS problems in service.  When it worked, it was great, but it often didn't.  Of course, most of this reliability stuff can be ignored in AH, like it is for other historically unreliable planes.  

HOWEVER, one of the problems the VK-107 had was constant overheating at the intended max setting of 3200rpm.  Thus, in service they had to limit it to 3000rpm to reduce this problem as much as possible, while keeping as much power as possible.  This was a fleet-wide thing, not a quirk of some individual or dogged-out planes.  And in AH, the 9U's max RPM is in fact limited to 3000 to relfect this.

The book says that the reduced RPM lowered level speed and ROC a bit but doesn't say how much.  And from reading the book, the best interpretation is that its stats for the 9U are at 3200rpm.  Thus, in AH it shouldn't go quite as fast and should take a little longer to climb.  And as far as I can tell that's the case.  I figure if HTC set the RPM to 3000, they took it's effects into account.  So keep that in mind in what follows.

LEVEL MAX SPEED
The book has 2 sets of stats for the 9U:  that of the prototype and that of a standard production machine from 1944.  The production planes were heavier than and not as smooth as the prototype so had lower performance.  But I figure that's what we have in the game (especially  because the RPM is 3000) so I compare AH data to the production machine data.

Book (1944 production machine, apparently at 3200rpm):
  • Sea Level:  357.2 mph
  • At 16,500':  417.5 mph


AH (at 3000rpm):
  • Sea level:  354 mph TAS
  • At 16,500':  412 mph TAS


So in AH the 9U is a tiny bit slower.  You'd expect that from the lower RPM, but is it enough slower?  I have no way of telling, but I'll give HTC the benefit of the doubt there.  So levevl max speed looks right.

RATE OF CLIMB
Book (1944 production machine, apparently at 3200rpm, apparently full tanks)
  • Time to 16,400':  5.0 minutes


AH (at 3000rpm, full tanks)
  • Time to 16,400':  5 minutes 28 seconds from start of roll


Again, the AH 9U has slightly worse performance, as expected.  And again, I have no way of knowing if it's worse by the right amount, but I'm not going to complain.

TURN PERFORMANCE
The book says the test was to make a flat 360^ circle as hard as possible at 1000m (3280').  The production 9U could do this in 20 seconds, but it doesn't say at what G level.  In AH, I could do this in about 18 seconds at 5-6 Gs the whole time.  Again, this seems close enough not to worry about.

DIVE PERFORMANCE
Here is where things go bad for AH's 9U.  In the game, the 9U is almost magically immune to the effects of compression and doesn't break up at high speeds.  This enables it to run down all other prop planes, because it can reach a higher speed and still maneuver while everything else either locks up or falls apart at lower speeds.

In the thread last year, several people with more aerodynamic knowledge than me explained why the 9U might have had a higher critical mach number than other planes, such as the P51D.  You can also see the results of some tests I did comparing how compression affected various planes, including the 9U.Here's that thread.

OK, I still don't know much about transsonic aerodynamics, but I do know this:  the 9U was made of WOOD for the most part, and this was a light as possible.  It had metal wing spars and some metal ribs, but the skin was plywood that was glued on.  And this meant that it simply could not handle extremely high speeds and their associated G loads without breaking up.  The book mentions a number of Yaks of various models breaking up from excessive speed and/or G.

After WW2, they built the Yak-9P.  This was just an all-metal 9U (at first only the wings were changed).  The all-metal wings increased the strength of the plane, and the book says the following, in comparing the 9P to the 9U:  "... the indicated airspeed in a dive could be increased from 404 mph to 447 mph, and the maximum G load in recovery from a dive was brought up to 8.0 instead of 6.5".

The 9U in AH greatly exceeds the numbers even for the 9P without injury.  It does not begin to even buffet until it gets about 550 TAS, is capable of exceeding 600 TAS and recover from a 45^ dive, and certainly never breaks just from high speed.  And once it gets buffeting, it's impossible to pull more than 2-4 Gs (depending on speed) anyway, so the G redline can't be exceeded.

I have managed, during MANY test dives, to pull both wings off just once, but I've been unable to repeat that.   It happened at total blackout Gs so I don't really know what I did anyway ;).  But it must have been something very strange because that's the only time I've ever broken a 9U.  Total blackout happens about 7.5 Gs, which is possible at speeds just before the plane starts buffeting, but don't break the plane.  I've pulled enough Gs pulling screaming 9Us out of dives to remain totally blacked out for at least 5 seconds after releasing the stick, but with this 1 exception I've never even lost a control surface.

So as far as I can tell, the 9U's dive  is WAY too good.  While it might have been able to do this from an aerodynamic point of view alone, it wasn't strong enough structurally to survive the attempt.  If somebody can show me that it WAS strong enough, then I'd feel a lot better.  But until then, I've got to believe that the 9U's pretty uber-porked in this area.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2003, 04:59:52 PM by Bullethead »

Offline GScholz

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2003, 07:14:41 PM »
Well the Yak is not alone in this ability to dive at high speeds without ripping things off, and when it comes to G limits it's not alone either, the P-38 was limited to 6 G's in operational service. The Yak's controls are locked up at about 500 mph, much like the 109 though in contrast to what you said, and must be pulled out of the dive using trim.
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Offline Bullethead

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2003, 09:20:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
The Yak's controls are locked up at about 500 mph, much like the 109 though in contrast to what you said, and must be pulled out of the dive using trim.


Well, we're definitely not seeing the same thing.  When I do my tests,  it's like this:  With 500 IAS (and TAS somewhere near 600), the Yak's defiitely bouncing like crazy and very stiff, but the controls still work.  You can pull about 2Gs with the stick alone and need neither rudder nor trim to get out of such a dive, even leaving the motor at full power.  But with only 2 Gs available, you better hope you're not going more than about 45^ down and have at least 5-6k alt when you start trying to recover.

Offline GScholz

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2003, 09:40:39 PM »
Ever tried that with a Spit? ;)

Anyways, at low alts compression problems are less noticable than at high alts. I posted a film earlier to prove that I could pull 10+ G's in the 109G10 at 510 mph. Close to SL and trimming manually it is not a problem, but the aileron stiffness is another matter though. At higher alts compression sets in earlier (I don't fully understand the physics behind it).
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Offline HoHun

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Re: Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2003, 12:58:31 AM »
Hi Bullethead,

>The book says that the reduced RPM lowered level speed and ROC a bit but doesn't say how much.  

As a rule of thumb, power is linear to rpm. At 3000 rpm, the Yak-9U would have 94% of the power available it has at 3200 rpm.

Speed would be lowered to the cubic root of this percentage, climb rate would be affected linearly.

So I'd say:

Parameter: Book - AH - My Estimate

Sea Level:  357.2 mph - 354 mph - 350 mph
At 16,500':  417.5 mph - 412 mph - 409 mph
Time to 16,400':  5.0 min - 5:28 min - 5:20 min

>The book says the test was to make a flat 360^ circle as hard as possible at 1000m (3280').  The production 9U could do this in 20 seconds, but it doesn't say at what G level.  

As far as I know, all of the Soviet Circle times were for sustained turns. G level should be whatever you get :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Tilt

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Re: Re: Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2003, 07:05:21 AM »
I think the assumption that

wood = poor dive performance (or high g pull out performance)

is a little suspect.

In the same book you will have read that indeed the Yak3 sufferred exactly what you describe as a result of frame lightening in critical areas. (Structural failure under very high speed high g manouvers)

However the Yak 9 was of more robust general construction.

We read elsewhere that the Lavochkins were able to withstand enormous G loads yet they too are wood laminate construction over a pine/birch frame (laterly with a steel spar)

The fact that many were subject to poor manufacturing qaulity is a given. Having said that Yakovlevs quality control is generally thought to have been superior to lavochkins (or so his auto biography would aapparantly have us believe).

I dont makle the case for or against your arguement re RL/AH FM just the basis of using wooden construction as evidence.

Figures for the max g re U and P seem to make the arguement alone.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2003, 07:09:37 AM by Tilt »
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Offline scJazz

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2003, 10:35:17 AM »
Nicely reasoned argument regarding the 9U. I think the largest single factor regarding dive performance is that AH simply does not model poor manufacturing and structural integrity well enough to get the results indicated.

From the descriptions in the book regarding planes falling apart it seems likely that the laminate/wood/metal spars were not up to handling high speed dives and recoveries.

Offline Vermillion

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2003, 11:27:55 AM »
Bullethead, what facts are you basing the assumption that it is too strong upon? It seems to me that your saying that its wood, so it couldn't be as strong as metal?

I forget off the top of my head the exact words, but in Yefim Gordon's book about WWII Soviet Fighters (the series prior to the one you quote) he specifically talks about the dive performance of the Yak-9U and described it as very very good in a dive.

While I agree that the Yak is a very nice plane, I don't see where it is significantly wrong.

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2003, 01:01:03 PM »
Hi again,

>climb rate would be affected linearly.

I've got to correct myself: Climb rate is linearly affected by weight, but power is a bit more complicated.

I'd say the Yak-9U lost about 1.5 m/s (300 fpm) of its initial climb rate by going from 3200 to 3000 rpm.

Parameter: Book - AH - My Estimate

Sea Level:  357.2 mph - 354 mph - 350 mph
At 16,500':  417.5 mph - 412 mph - 409 mph
Time to 16,400':  5.0 min - 5:28 min - 5:29 min

I'm not sure whether the 5.0 min are for a standing start, though. I'd expect them to be for a flying start.

However, if I integrate the graph at:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/yak9u.html

I get a time of 4:57 min for a climb to 16400 ft.

If that's a reduced-rpm Yak-9U, the 5 min for the full-rpm Yak-9U must be for a standing start which would appear unusual.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Bullethead

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2003, 06:43:57 PM »
Tilt said:
Quote
I think the assumption that wood = poor dive performance (or high g pull out performance) is a little suspect.


Sure, some very strong planes were made of wood.  As you mention, the Lavotchkins seem to have been in this category.  But the whole Yak family seems to have been relatively weak.  The book mentions instances of all wartime models breaking up under high speed and/or high G conditions.

I'm just saying that while aerodynamically the Yak might have been capable of very high dive speeds, it just wasn't strong enough to exploit that potential to anywhere near like it can in AH.

Quote
In the same book you will have read that indeed the Yak3 sufferred exactly what you describe as a result of frame lightening in critical areas. (Structural failure under very high speed high g manouvers) However the Yak 9 was of more robust general construction.


Actually, that's not what the book says.  It says that the 9U and 3 had structurally similar wings.  Both were mostly wood but with metal for spars and some of the ribs.  The only structural difference was that the 3's wing was divided down the centerline into left and right halves to allow partial replacement in the field (all other Yaks up till then had had 1-piece wings).  However, when it talks about Yak 3's breaking up under high stress, it's not this centerline joint that fails, but the skin coming off the ribs and spars.  Which is the same problem the other types of Yaks had.


Vermillion said:
Quote
Bullethead, what facts are you basing the assumption that it is too strong upon? It seems to me that your saying that its wood, so it couldn't be as strong as metal?


I'm using the redline speeds and Gs published in this book, and the fact that these numbers increased from the 9U (wood wing with metal spars) to the 9P (all-metal wing).  Also, the fact that the book mentions Yaks of all types breaking up under high loads.

Of course, redline speeds and Gs are not failure points.  Redlines are always a bit lower than failure points, to account for possibly weaker planes than normal and to give the pilot a little margin for error.  So I'm not saying that 9U's should start shedding parts at 404 mph IAS or 6.5 Gs.

But what I am saying is that obviously Yaks broke at some point.  There are numerous examples provided in the book, plus mention that pilots had to "hold them back" in dives to keep from exceeding their structural limits.  And redlines of 404 IAS and 6.5 Gs don't seem particularly high for a late-war WW2 fighter, but I'm no expert at that.

So given all that, it seems pretty bogus that 9Us don't break at all (except for 1 mysterious incident out of about 50 tests), even at speeds over 100 mph greater their real-life redline.  I don't know at what point they should break, nor how badly, but IMHO the balance of the evidence favors them breaking before they reach 500 IAS, and probably before the 550 TAS at which they start buffeting.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2003, 06:46:56 PM by Bullethead »

Offline Vermillion

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 08:59:44 AM »
Bullethead, where in the book does it have Do Not Exceed speeds and G limits? I own the book, but admittedly I haven't gone thru it with a fine tooth comb.  Been doing too much research into jets!

Offline Tilt

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 11:08:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
Bullethead, where in the book does it have Do Not Exceed speeds and G limits? I own the book, but admittedly I haven't gone thru it with a fine tooth comb.  Been doing too much research into jets!



Yak 9U  .........page 99  col. 1 end of para3

Yak 3........... page 111 col. 2  mid para 2


Yak 3 wing skin accidents    page116 col3. para 1

Beware also that the performance figures for the V105 PF-2 Yak 3 are missing but included in his previous book which I think you have.

Stay away from jets.............
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Offline Vermillion

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2003, 11:50:31 AM »
Thanks Tilt ! I'll have to look at that this evening.  And yes I have all his books (modern and WWII), except for the new one on the Lavochkin series.  I'm waiting right now for the new one on the MiG-19 to be shipped.

I use to think the same thing about jets.  But you can only do so much reading and gathering of books and information on WWII planes before you start to run out of worthwhile material to collect.  If I lived near one of the large museums (like the USAF Museum or the Smithsonian or something) I would start to dig thru the archives, but I don't.

So I got bored, and started getting into 50's thru the 70's jets.  Lots of great stuff out there.

Offline Tilt

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2003, 12:55:51 PM »
AH Yak 9U in 45 degree full power dive from 21 k

It does accelerate very fast once past 300. Once serious buffetting is incurred circa 450 accel continues un abaited...........

pull back on JS and press K...... and as you are fully in black out the wings come off ( film shows speed at circa 600).........

In fact the wreck continues to accel with more bits coming off hitting the ground at nearly 700.

I think Bullet head has a point  (not about wood) about the  massive margin between 404 IAS and 550 plus when stuff starts to happen.

Obviously combined  wing load is a combination of speed (drag load) and G (lift load) but some creaking and groaning after 425/450 might seem appropriate  and  some sort of damage depending on G circa 500 would at least seem in  order.
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Offline Batz

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Yak-9U Performance (again)
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2003, 01:03:22 PM »
all AH planes benefit from this. Do the same dive test in an a6m2. You will see similiar results.