Author Topic: Most Surprising Fighter Fact?  (Read 12207 times)

Offline Halo

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Most Surprising Fighter Fact?
« on: December 22, 2003, 07:49:12 PM »
The largest single-engine fighter of WWII, the P-47, does not have the widest wingspan.  Didn't notice that until looking at F6F Hellcat beside the new 1/72 Matchbox Collectible P-47.  

The Hellcat spans 42 feet, 10 inches; the Thunderbolt spans 40 feet, 9 1/4 inches.   That really surprises me, especially with the F6F being a carrier fighter.  

Of course the wingspan champ of all nations probably is the FW Ta 152H-1 at 47 feet, 6 3/4 inches.

What fact about WWII fighter planes surprises you the most?
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2003, 08:53:13 PM »
How do you define 'large'?

 The P-47 is massive no doubt - seeing a pic of a pilot standing next to a P-47, it looks more like a light bomber(!). But in pure size I thought the P-38 was larger than the P-47.

Offline SunTracker

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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2003, 08:55:44 PM »
F6F is a HUGE plane.  It has more wing area than a P47 also.

The first time I saw an F6f in real life (Clark Country Air Show), it was monstrously huge compared to the other fighters.

My favorite 'surprising' fact is that the P-51 can only fly inverted for a few seconds before all the oil drains out of the engine.  After which the engine will seize.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2003, 08:55:56 PM »
He said "Single engine", thus eliminating the P-38.
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Offline moot

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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2003, 09:55:20 PM »
don't have the proportions of each of those in visual memory, but I remember visiting one of Phoenix's WWII planes museum, and in the fighters hangar, with a D13, a spitfire, a yak, a P51, a P47 (cage canopy), a 38, and some others, the Corsair was in comparison a titan by stance and volume.
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Offline Kommandant

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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2003, 09:58:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
don't have the proportions of each of those in visual memory, but I remember visiting one of Phoenix's WWII planes museum, and in the fighters hangar, with a D13, a spitfire, a yak, a P51, a P47 (cage canopy), a 38, and some others, the Corsair was in comparison a titan by stance and volume.


Chandler Airforce Base in Mesa Arizona.

I got to sit in the cockpit of that Yak-9 and The two greatest things I got to do when there was help Push out a B17 from the Hanger to the runway so they could do new engine tests, aswell as Fly in the Nose Gunner position on the HE-111 they had there for half an hour.

If you are ever down there, Ask for Frank and tell him Erik Sent ya, you will get to do some really cool things.

As far as the... what was this subject about? Oh yeah as far as the most suprising Fighter Fact, that would have to be on the Japanese version of the ME-163. Due to not getting all the technical information on the ME-163, Japan was forced to use just a Manual and some photos to create their own version which was fully functional within Six Months.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 10:02:55 PM by Kommandant »

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2003, 01:32:20 AM »
Somethings that don't surprise me, but certainly will surprise others.

P-39D-1 vs A6M2

P-39D climbed to 15,000 feet faster than the Zero 21.
P-39D accelerated much faster than the Zero 21.
P-39D had a much faster roll rate than the Zero 21 from 100 mph on up.
P-39D was 70-90 mph faster in a dive than the Zero 21.

All in all, the P-39D easily out-performed the A6M2 in every category but low-speed maneuverability and range. Yet, today you would think the P-39D was an absolute pig. It wasn't. It also proved very formidable against the Luftwaffe at altitudes below 15,000 feet. It's turn rate was very similar to the later P-63A King Cobra, meaning it was far more maneuverable than the P-51, even slightly better than the F6F. Within the American inventory of WW2 fighters, only the F4F/FM series was more agile than the Airacobra. What hurt the P-39 was its single-speed, single-stage supercharger that limited adequate performance to below 15k. Above that, performance fell off sharply as you went up. Both the Japanese and Germans were aware of the P-39's performance woes up high and they used tactics to take advantage of that. However, down on the deck, the Airacobra was a very dangerous foe. Especially the later models with more power and better guns.

For example, the P-39N was rated for 399 mph at 9,700 feet. How does that compare to late war fighters? Pretty good. It's faster than the La-7 (391 mph) at that altitude! Speed on the deck was very good as well. Where the P-39D could pull only 305 mph (and 368 mph at 12k), the P-39N could exceed 339 mph, 348 mph in WEP. Climb rate was good, if not spectacular. The P-39D needed 5.7 minutes to get to 15k, but the P-39N/Q could get there in 3.8 minutes, which is slightly better than the P-51D. Acceleration was also very good. In fact, it was better than the F4U-4, P-47D-30, and markedly better than the F6F-5. Just so you know, the later P-39s were powered by 1,420 hp Allisons, not the 1,100 hp engines fitted to the P-39D. The later models were also about 200 lbs lighter as well.

Most P-39N/Qs were shipped to the Soviets, but several USAAF fighter squadrons based in Italy flew them, as did the Italians and Free French. When USAAF units switched over to the P-47 near the end of the war, most pilots were unhappy to exchange their P-39s, which quite frankly, was a much better fighter at the altitudes where they spent most of their time. The P-47, however, could haul better than 3 times the weight of under-wing ordnance.

So, while the early P-39D was a better performer than the A6M2 Zero below 15k, likewise, the P-39N/Q series was reasonably competitive with later war fighters at low to medium altitudes.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to have a late model P-39 in Aces High?

So, are you surprised?

My regards,

Widewing
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Widewing

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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2003, 02:06:52 AM »
I'd love to have an early P39/P400 for pacific war battles. :) I have been asking for one quite some time.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2003, 03:08:01 AM »
Nice Widewing, Nice;)
Did you know that damage to the hydraulics system in the 190 could lead to it dropping one or both legs of gear down? And that with one gear down it could turn very tight to that side!
Or, that a lightly loaded Lancaster could loop!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2003, 03:38:35 AM »
Could a Lancaster loop?!?

I don't have WWII fighter facts but here are a few aviation surprises. Some of them may be urban myths though.

The B-36 bomber could outturn a F-86 Sabre at extreme altitudes due to it's massive wing, a F-86 would simply stall out.

The Handley Page Victor (a 1950's British four engined nuclear jet bomber) could actually break the sound barrier, but only just. It appears to have been the largest aircraft ever to go supersonic. I find it hard to believe but I have it from a TV-programme I once recorded from Discovery channel.

Before they scaled down their airforce The Netherlands were the second largest F-16 operator after the US.

Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2003, 03:48:02 AM »
Widewing, I have no doubt whatsoever that you can back up your claims, but what are your sources?

The only thing I've heard in all my life is that the P-39 was indeed a pig, with poor performance, dangerous handling characteristics and a very poor rate of climb, especially compared to the A6M.

Seems that for every theory available about WWII fighters someone has the data to disprove it...

On the other hand, the detailed data I've seen on Spits, 109's, F4U's and the technical problems of the P-38 in Europe is simply amazing. It is only a shame that people's judgement is so often clouded by their personal preference :(

Offline DarkglamJG52

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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2003, 03:49:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Nice Widewing, Nice;)
Did you know that damage to the hydraulics system in the 190 could lead to it dropping one or both legs of gear down? And that with one gear down it could turn very tight to that side!
Or, that a lightly loaded Lancaster could loop!


From http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lang.html

On 3 September 1944, Lang had had mechanical trouble with his aircraft. When he finally took off from Melsbroek at the head of a three aircraft Kette, he had difficulty raising his undercarriage. Ten minutes later USAAF Mustangs intercepted them. Lang was last seen diving vertically with his undercarriage extended. His Fw 190 A-8 (W.Nr. 171 240) “Green 1” hit the ground and exploded near St Trond. It would appear he was the victim of American ace Darrell Cramer (7 destroyed, 1 probable and 1 damaged victories) of the 338 FS, 55 FG USAAF.

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2003, 04:52:00 AM »
F6F is bigger than a F4U as well which surprised me!
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2003, 06:41:24 AM »
they have an f4u at the Air Museum in Tucson, that thing is huge always though it was bigger then f6f
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Offline Delirium

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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2003, 06:54:31 AM »
The gull type wings makes the F4U look bigger. Stretched out, it would have a larger wingspan.
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