WoD for SSO Frame 3 Allies

[ramzey]

constructive feed back, here you have

Frame 1

After you post objectives i ask you to open ports as airfields and move IJN fleet back to prevent fast  NOE strike.

When you call off frame i wont pay more attencion about other mistakes in setup. I was sure week more can give you time to rethink all settings.

Obvious for me was:
- secound life for bomber pilots will be secound life as bomber pilot
- IJN will be obligued to use bombers for attack, not jabo. What in consequence will force IJN to fight with defending  forces and defend his bomber during bomber run ( dive bombers). Obvious was,  high alt Kates with max 3 bombs cannot do many damages on field. So  bombers will fly up to 22-25 k. Its very hard for P40B to fight on this alt , but not impossible.

Obvoius was, defending 3 ports USAF must split forces . With lower numbers, even if all are in fighters its impossible to stand against  IJN strike . So will be not concentration of allied fighters.
USAF units who patrol southern port cannot fly there in less then 20 min.


I did mistake and let one of the squadrons CAP 15 more minutes on request of SL. I should force them to rearm and send over eastern port. My weeknes i not did that. Thats why first strike was not intercepted.
I should mention , it was 1h 20 min of event time.

After that i establish CAP and scouts over last 2 targets and wait for secound strike.
15 min before frame end we spot bunch of zekes trying to reach our port in time. Flying mid level due lack of time. We let them pass and keep searching for bombers. But bombers never come.
I should mention its highly historical incorect to use zekes as Jabo in this setup.

Lucki for people and setup we all saw fight in this last 10 min of event. Thats is the reason about low level of complain. But thats not mean it was perfect frame.

Tilt did great battle plan and execute it well. But avoiding fight on SOPS os not main target of event. COuple times people was complaining about, not seen action duiring event and allways CM's state it was "unexpirienced commander", sho should not walk this way. Of course it was not against rules , but as somone said "unsporty"

errors:
- wrong choice of terrain wichone have low numbers  of airfields, and they are placed far one form other.
- only one operatioinal airfield for allies ( good for USAF , airfield was not object to attack)
- incorrect writed rule about secound life for IJN bombers
- missing rule about using numbers of planes (in consequence)
- missing rule about not using Zeke as jabo plane
-wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useles (have you heard about observation corps?)

Frame 2

Knowing everything what went wrong in frame one i suspect rules will be corrected.
But again was not.
Camo walk same wasy as Tilt did. Using tactic of burning fuel by 2 hours.

2 hours zeke use plane advantage to stay above allied fighters  and after 1:20 minutes we saw ju88 passing 28k+ over our fields.
Minor damage they did atacking form this alt are just funny.
Of course its cool to fly, drop bomb and fly back home knowing nothing can touch us. But its good for somone who fly FS or delivery mail. I ican say 2 kills for allies we did, was only by accident. When bored zekes attack us.

not use in this frame dive bombers keep away any fight. Simple IJN have no reasons to escort or even trying to clean up space from allied fighters. Allies cannot reach bombers, even if they have poof chances to idamage them

errors in frame 2
- no alt limit for ju88
- no rule about minimum numbers of used planes
- wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useles
- too long distance between IJN and US airfields making impossible to do secound strike
- and still bad rule about secound life

Frame 3

here was extended version of complaing about errors in frame 3. But for good of USAF i will post it via mail

enough?

[Skuzzy]

lucull, I am not going to close this thread.  I would remind everyone that insults have absolutely no constructive value.  If you want to be taken seriously, then that is the first thing that will stop.  Right now.

I would like to think that everyone is intelligent enough to realize that insults will never serve to improve a situation.  If you think or believe it is correct to insult, then you will need to move on.

Please do not insult my intelligence by attempting to defend a position riddled with insults.

[ghostdancer]

constructive feed back, here you have

Frame 1
After you post objectives i ask you to open ports as airfields and move IJN fleet back to prevent fast strike.

I moved the IJN fleet back as you requested to prevent a quick strike.

While I can let ports up airplanes I have not control over the map and it could have proved very hazardous for them upping there. Plus, your point of moving the IJN fleet was to prevent a quick strike. I did not see the need to move the fleet and then also open up the ports so that you could try to spawn there.

As for landing at the port to rearm you can try but there is nothing I can do to make it easier.

When you call off frame i wont pay more attencin about other mistakes in setup. I was sure week more can give you time to rethink all settings.

I had Flossy call off the frame and site the reasons. At not time did I say I was scrapping the events and we were moving up Suave’s event. That is an assumption you made.

Obvius for me was:
- secound life for bomber pilots will be secound life as bomber pilot
- IJN will be obligued to use bombers for attack, not jabo. What in consequence will force IJN to fight with defending forces and defend his bomber during bomber run ( dive bombers). Obvious was, high alt Kates with max 3 bombs cannot do many damages on field. So fight bomber will fly up to 22-25 k. Its very hard for P40B to fight on this alt , but not impossible.
Second life of bombers were actually used as fighters pilots. They could have used them as bombers if they wanted. There are pluses and drawbacks to them reupping as bombers. Its part of being faced with a tactical and strategic decision. Tilt made choices about how to use them.

IJN used the bombers as JABO. They were D3A1s. They did not up B5Ns. The IJN commander was faced with decisions about how to use his planes. If he used B5Ns he has several problems .. their performance at alt. The fact that they are basically defenseless and the problems of bombing from high alt with such a small bomb load.

You made assumptions about how the IJN commander would deploy his forces and these were not borne out. Could they have done what you feared yes. Even if they did the consequences might not have turned out the way you feared.

Obvoius was, defending 3 ports USAF must split forces and with lower number even if all are in fighters its impossible to stand against IJN strike . So will be not concentration of allied fighters.
USAF units who patrol southern port cannot fly there in less then 20 min.

The three ports were stationed in close proximity to each other (2 right next to each
other) and 1 2 sectors away. The IJN fleet was moved, at your request to make sure that you had the time to get to those ports and get alt. As you requested.[/b]

As for concentration of allied fighters yes and no.

The IJN fielded 21 D3A1s in the first strike and 15 A6M2s. If you split your forces between the two target areas equally that would have allowed you to have 16 P40Bs on station on one and 15 on the other. You have have fighter parity no matter what they hit. If Tilt went with less Fighters yes, you would be outnumbered. His D3A1s would get through but your fighter force should maul his fighters. Then its possible that your second force alerted to the size of the attack could have mauled his D3A1s outbound when their fighter escort was significantly fewer and out of cannon. Remember only D3A1s get second lives.

So yes and no in my opinion.


I did mistake and let one of the squadrons CAP 15 more minutes on request of SL. I should force them to rearm and send over eastern port. My weeknes i not did that. Thats why first strike was not intercepted.
I should mention , it was 1h 20 min of event time.

I understand that it was 1 hour and 20 minutes into the event. I did not expect such a late strike but I have seen late strikes before in events. Which is why I asked squads what they thought and how it affected their fun.

After that i establish CAP and scouts over last 2 targets and wait for secound strike.
15 min before frame end we spot bunch of zekes trying to reach our port in time. Flying mid level due lack of time. We let them pass and keep searching for bombers. But bombers never come.
I should mention its highly historical incorect to use zekes as Jabo in this setup.

Agreed I did not expect them to up with bombs (only 3 did) and thus, did not write a rule banning it. Just like I did not expect if the allies go with the B17 option in frame 3 for them to do “dive bombing B17s.” But in hind sight went back and specifically posted about not doing that just to make sure. I expected drop tanks. Wrong assumption on my part and fixed for frame 2 and frame 3.

Lucki for people and setup we all saw fight in this last 10 min of event. Thats is the reason about low level of complain. But thats not mean it was perfect frame.

This is your opinion and take on it. Which is why I also asked other peoples opinions. They did not agree with you for frame 1. Your opinion is valid and so is theirs.

Tilt did grat battle plan and execute it well. But avoiding fight on SOPS os not main target of event. COuple times people was compplaining about not seen action duiring event and allways CM's state it was "unexpirienced commander", sho should not walk this way. Of course it was not against rules , but as somone said "unsporty"

You need to discuss with Tilt the reasoning behind his plan. I can’t comment on whether he we was on purpose was trying to avoid fights. I think he was trying to maximize his strengths to catch you at a weak point. But only Tilt can fully expounded on his reasoning for his battle plan.

As for your point about unexperienced commander. The CM’s can’t script every person’s move. The only way to learn is to try things. Squad Ops about giving people a shot at trying and some times they fail some times they don’t. Many time they approach the tactical objectives in ways nobody thinks of.  No matter what rules are written you always have varying qualities of commanders and battle plans.


errors:
- wrong chiuce of terrain wichone have low numbers of airfields, and they are placed far one form other.

Your opinion. The terrain has been used several times successfully in the past.

- only one operatioinal airfield for allies ( good for USAF , airfield was not object to attack)

Don’t see how another operation airfield would have made more of a difference since we moved the IJN fleet father out. Yes you would have not 2 sectors to fly to target but you would still fly back 2 sectors. Or try to land and refuel at a port

- incorrect writed rule about secound life for IJN bombers
Your opinion.

- missing rule about using numbers of planes (in consequence)
Your opinion. Allied side and IJN side were told about second strike capability and noted in the objectives where said US had to work to keep planes alive to deal with second strike.

- missing rule about not using Zeke as jabo plane
Agreed.

-wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useles (have you heard about observation corps?)
Your opinion. And base under attack was enabled.

[ghostdancer]

Frame 2

Knowing everything what went wrong in frame one i suspect rules will be corrected.
But again was not.

Both you and Lucull were informed of the modifications. Lucull even responded to them via email. I stated specifically what I was modifying.

Camao walk same wasy as Tilt did. Using tactic of burning fuel by 2 hours.

Camo’s strike came in at roughly the same time Tilt’s did on the first frame. However, this time unlike before the targets were the two airfields and you did not have to travel 2 sectors to patrol. Which was believed to give you  the ability to plan  refueling patterns and even delay launches to conserve fuel (which was done over in FSO just recently in Battle of Britain).

2 hours zeke use plane advantage to stay above allied fighters and after 1:20 minutes we saw ju88 passing 28k+ over our fields.
Minor damage they did atacking form this alt are just funny.
Of course its cool to fly, drop bomb and fly back home knowing nothing can touch us. But its good for somone who fly FS or delivery mail. I ican say 2 kills for allies we did, was only by accident. When bored zekes attack us.

not use in this frame dive bombers keep away any fight. Simple IJN have no reasons to escort or even trying to clean up space from allied fighters. Thay cannot reach bombers, even if they have poof chances to idamage them


Agreed. I did not seriously ever consider the possibility that somebody would try to bomb in JU88s from that altitude. Since it is extremely inaccurate. I have seen it done in FSO but basically only when you have a massive bomber force carpet bombing (i.e. 30 formations of buffs). I did not seriously think any CiC would choose such course that most likely guaranteed not doing damage to bases. On the flip side the IJN could have also just upped all JU88s and flown high and go without escorts.

This was an oversight. Which if the allies go with the 3 B17 formations in frame 3 an alt cap has been put in place. Although if they really wanted to try to bomb a maneuvering fleet from the high 20s or 30s .. well good luck and have fun watching the splashes. But as you point out while ineffective for bombing the real impact is that it ruins the fun of the defending fighters. Which is why I am making modifications for frame 3 and at people’s suggestions switched to a SBD strike to replace the B17 strike.


errors in frame 2
- no alt limit for ju88
Agreed I did not think a CiC would sacrifice bomb accuracy when they have only small about of bombers to guarantee their safety.

- no rule about minimum numbers of used planes
Your opinion. In hindsight I would now have been more worried about a maximum limit of planes. 36 formations of JU88s would have been a nightmare.

- wrong set for radar, wichone is for allies useless
Radar refresh rate was increased. Base under attack was on. Your opinion.

- too long distance between IJN and US airfields making impossible to do secound strike
Disagree. The IJN were given 3 airfields to strike from. The closest at 4 sectors. It depended on their battle plan. They could have opted to use the closer base with different planes. Their battle plan not base locatin precluded a second strike. That is the CiC’s choice.



- and still bad rule about secound life
Rule about second life was modified not to include JU88s. This is your opinion. Lucull even stated he saw the logic behind giving early war bombers a second life so that they did more than just be sitting ducks. In first frame, they came up as fighters and only 1 second lifer came up with a bomb on the A6M2. In second frame no second lives used. I still believe it’s a valid rule and the U.S. has it for its SBDs if they go with that option for frame 3.

Frame 3

here was extended version of complaing about errors in frame 3. But for good of USAF i will post it via mail

enough?
Fine and reasonably thought out present in a positive manner.

[ghostdancer]

As I said I will consider all constructive and postive feedback. However, I have a balance to walk making 10 squads happy. When in doubt I double check my own thoughts by asking for feedback which is what I did on frame 1. You can consider it poll taking and what value it really has or does not have.

I did not think frame 1 was seriously flawed. But then again people have to understand that CMs can never construct something that has no possibility of getting out of whack if we still want to allow the CiCs to have free will and come up with plans. The other route is I tell you what squad is assigned to what planes, how many planes, when you have to hit a target by, etc. .. in the extreme. I don't think anybody wants that. I know I don't as a participant in FSO.

Frame 2 got feedback on before the event also. On that I will admit I made a mistake. I did not think that one side would basically choose a course that guaranteed the survival of their bombers but do little significant damage to their targets or the defenders. The possibility was brought up but I didn't think I had to say .. well if you do that you won't win the frame by flying that high and really will be tedious. It seems that I do have to spell more things out. So frame 2 is flawed because I didn't seriously consider a possibility. And in hindsight could have been worse because I did not assign a limit on the JU88s .. think of 36 JU88 formation.

Frame 3 I think is workable. I think with frame 2 in mind that switching to equal forces and the U.S. SBDs having second lives instead of using B17s would be the best course of action to better guarantee fun for all. I posted and included it in many emails.

It was missed by the selected allied commander so I reopened the discussion.

Again can be viewed as taking a poll. I view it as consensus building where I ask for feedback to try to keep myself in touch with the participants. This could be a flaw or a wrong way to approach things. Its the way I do it.

[lucull]

Skuzzy, I'm not riddling anything and I don't find any insulting word which attacks Ghostdancer or any other as person.
I wrote in my last post that any critic is not meant personally and I mean it.

Gremlin buddy, I know what you have coded, how much work is in it and I know the quality of your code I implemented. I also know that you work also on the Scores, Snapshots and CAP pages. I don't think you have a reason to feel insulted when I described my worries, that I left you alone on the squadops page project.

But yes, I'm not happy (and defiently not the only one), that the page is still not finished, but the reasons for this don't belong here.

Ghostdancer, I didn't mean Tilt to be treaten like the 412th. I didn't know, that frame 1 was delayed by Tilt's request. How could I by reading Flossy's email:

Hi all

Ghostdancer has asked me to contact you all to let you know that, as he "screwed up" due to various RL issues, Frame 1 will now be put back a week until the 18th.  Apologies for the inconvenience, but hopefully moving it to the following Sunday will make sure you get a "quality event".  This Sunday, BlkKnit has kindly offered to run a Snapshot instead, so I hope as many of you as possible will come along to that - and bring along others too!  



--
Flossy
Head CM
Aces High CM Team

What I have asked for is, that if a CM is not able to make it due to RL issues, he should organize a backup CM, cause that's the way how it is handled if a player/CiC can't make it, instead of delaying the event for everybody.

Something is pathetic, if you know the result already, correct? (but my dictionary gives a couple of more german translations for it)
And I don't think anybody would seriously expect a series to be cancelled in squadops if some players of one side found one frame boring. (only 315 thought frame 1 was boring too)

Of course I think that you encourage player's critics and I see that you change things based on them.
It just doesn't seem that you accept any critics done by ramzey or me anymore and I asked, that if it is like that, you should say it openly. Trust me, we would shut up.

Certainly you didn't ask me to leave the squadops page project. It was Flossy (CM team leader), who told ramzey and me to re-evaluate participation in SSO. As I told you before, how could I work for something, when I'm obviously asked to not participate in it?

Last but not least, I speak for myself and as XO and therefor as representative of my squad, which doesn't automatically mean that I speak for all of my squadmates. And if needed, I help ramzey to argue, when he asks me or I think someone misunderstands him.
I don't speak for anybody else. Wasn't showing this the goal of your poll and meantioning the result in more than half of a dozen messages since then?

I do have other CMs tell me that it should be more dictatorial and that this is the setup, these are the rules, and either participate or don't.

And after the event, you should evaluate your own design and ask players for their opinion about it, to improve for the next design.
You just weaken your own position, when you entrap yourself in endless discussions with players. Frankly, I wouldn't do that.

[Skuzzy]

lucull, do not take my entire post as directed at you.  It was not.  The only response to you was I would not close the thread.

The rest is to be taken as general comment on the quality of information being provided.  Insults, be they sarcastic, indirect, or directed will never provide a medium for constructive discussions to take place.

[daddog]

I do have other CMs tell me that it should be more dictatorial and that this is the setup, these are the rules, and either participate or don't.

Who would say such a thing?

[lucull]

Alright Skuzzy.

Hehe, daddog.

[skernsk]

As a 'former' CM I have not gotten into these discusions much but must now admit that this is getting tiring.

I do not wish to sling insults .. but this entire thread is a waste of time and effort and I do not feel that ramzey is worth wasting time over.

The 'pathetic' pole was very enlightening to me.  Was it pathetic in that yours was the only vote for a cancelation?  Ahh .. I thought so.  Once again the vocal minority tries but fails to derail the SSO ......

thanks for coming out ...

lucull worked hard on the webpage and got it looking good.  It was strange and I still don't know why he walked away from it ... but in the end it will be finished without his help.

Too bad you had some great ideas lucull ..

[ghostdancer]

Lucull,

Usually I would have asked another CM to cover. The RL illness in family just came up suddenly and I was scrambling and simply could not get things in motion fast enough to give both sides time to put together plans. Ramzey got plans together .. the IJN side was some confusion caused be me assign Tilt as CiC when it should have been AndyH from his squad.

At the last moment since, since I was going to be out of touch from friday to sunday night. I decided it was better to delay than run the risk of the Allies showing up and the IJN not. Which is why I asked Flossy to relay my delay orders. Call me anal but because I wouldn't be in touch and couldn't make sure that everything gotten hammered out in time I did not want to leave people possibly in the lurch.

If I had more warning I would have simply turned things over to another CiC. But we have little control over somethings in our lives.

I would say that I do accept your and Ramzey's critiques. I did make modifications to frame 2. However, there are items that I don't agree with and so won't change. I value all opinions and have to take into account everyone's opinion. I still have to make value judgements and as the posts above denote there are things I don't agree with and their things I did modify.

I have recieved Ramzey frame 3 critique of the rules and there are many things I don't agree with there. But there are some that I do and I will explain via email.

The point of the poll and messages is to gather feedback and relay things. I take it for granted that the officers of each squad keeps in touch with his squad mates and assess their opinions and can pass on the general feeling. I don't think anyone thinks that each of the other 9 squads members are 100% agreement. But each CO and XO basically finds out where his squads stands (majority) and passes it on.

I don't have time to ask for opinions of 70 individual people in SSO. And over 200 FSO. I rely on it being more representatives. The CO and XO are representative of their members and hopefully are accurately reflecting what their members in general think.

As for the results the point of that is simply this that I believe it would be pure arrogance for me to say the other squads think you are wrong. They might have thought you were right. So since I was unwilling to put words in their mouths I asked them.

Also as stated by email one point of view does not out weight 9 others. You may avidly believe you are correct but since this is a group event people must be willing to consider other view points and at times accept them. If I didn't post the results of my feedback then people could say I was just handing down a position and while the majority vehemently disagreed with me.

I asked and found out the majority did not have issues with frame and thought it was fun. Frame 2 the allied side did not have fun and the IJN side did to an extent. But all seem to agree it could have played out better. Frame 3 most want to give it a shot instead of moving up Suave's SSO (which is now academic too late to move it up).

Its about checking people's view points, seeing if your own logic has major flaws, and making a value decision. With 10 squads involved its impossible to make everyone happy all the time and people have to accept that they might be unhappy now. But later on their view point might be the one more accepted which makes others unhappy.

Its like you might not like so-so as a CiC but you know later you will get a shot or that the next CiC you think is terrific at it.

[ghostdancer]

Oh, one further point if you think things stem from Ramzey poor command of English and him be misinterpreted I would suggest the following.

Ramzey writes his responses in fluid Polish send them to you or another person who can translate better into English. Send the english version back to Ramzey and then Ramzey post.

Tedious and more time intensive but only way I can see to further reduce Polish to English miscommunications.

[lucull]

Originally posted by ghostdancer
Ramzey writes his responses in fluid Polish send them to you or another person who can translate better into English. Send the english version back to Ramzey and then Ramzey post.

Tedious and more time intensive but only way I can see to further reduce Polish to English miscommunications.

Good idea, the only problem is to find a volunteer for that, because my polish is almost as good as yours. I can curse in polish, that's all.

But I will try to help ramzey to be more clear and we will try to be more polite and respectful in future and if you are not sure what we mean, just ask for further explanations, before you "strike" back.

[skernsk]

ramzey has the art of sarcasm mastered better than many who speak english as a native language.

There are many online translators.  Perhaps ramzey can post here in Polish and those who care can translate it.

[ghostdancer]

Lucull,

Really? For some reason I thought you were fluid in Polish? Was it just Ramzey, Fdski, Bike Kil, and Suave who were?

I guess I was under the wrong impression that you were too and others from that group.