A reason for pause...

[Tilt]

I suppose when ones "agenda" is  questioned the natural responce is to critique the alternative, and if an alternative is not presented, then demand it be, so it may be critiqued.

This is "investigation" on a court room or political type "advsersarial model". Unfortunately the out come of this method is often subject to wit, banter and popularity and not the actual logic applied.

However the questioner does not have to have an alternative, he/she may simply be unsatisfied with the data presented and its use to arrive at a conclusion.

Kappas premice led to an agenda suggesting "other dark forces" as conspiritorial agendas usually do.

Its interesting to note that 250 years ago we may have been looking very seriously for the witch that had quite obviously caused all this.

In some parts even now some will quite seriously be showing how the unanswered questions show evidence of the hand of God and promote the arguement that this diety not only axists but is active. (Was it a "miracle" that the WTC towers did not topple onto more of surrounding NY?)

A Van Danekin of the future might paint the arguement for alien intervention. This may seem very unlikely now but if turns out that we actually get know aliens over the next few hundred years our present view will then seem no more enlightened than Salems towards it "witches" does to us now.


So Kappas question remains, what could have caused WTC7 to collapse in apparant sympathy with the twin towers................

I do not know..............but I think I would start to look at the subterranean levels and common foundations first.

I would also espouse the mantra of always looking for "cockup" before "conspiracy" when trying to solve unanswered questions.

Human ability to effect its destiny through cockup out ways its ability to do the same by conspiracy by 10 to the power of a significant magnitude.

[straffo]

Was the WTC7 connected in way of another to the other wtc ?

[kappa]

Originally posted by straffo
Was the WTC7 connected in way of another to the other wtc ?

straffo, not that I have been witness to. #7 sat some 300ft away from 1 & 2 squeezed inbetween the Verizon building and the Federal post office. A very tight fit between I might add. But as things go, I would not be surprised if all the WTC were connected by some sort of tunnel system. I say again, I would not be surprised as I have never read the such. Tunnels for basic movement of people and things that is, not CIA or conspiracy tunnels.. I will do some searching as I'm certain if they existed they will be documented..

Pictures that I could find:

http://wtc7.net/location.html

http://wtc7.net/rubblepile.html

I might add that finding photos of such things is very difficult. If some wish to claim I use these sites for any other purpose than their photography, do so if you must. I only ask that before you do, make the attempt to find good photos of WTC #7 on a 'non-conspiracy' site. If you do, I will change the links if I believe said photos are of as good a quality. If you believe you are unable to handle these sites, DONT BROWSE to them. Also, for the sake of argument and for those that choose to believe I would influence their opinion by use of these sites, DO NOT READ the text.. Merely observe the photographs for position of WTC #7..

Gawd, i feel like a lawyer in a torts court attempting to cover his ass.. sillyness..

[straffo]

I ask this question just because if a shock wave can be propagated to another system and if this happen to be the natural resonance frequency of this other system you can have more than strange result and even destruction.

Btw it involve physic I'm no more fluent with and I will have an pretty hard time to explain in English.

Think of the Angers bridge or the Tacoma (spelling?) bridge.

[scout]

If conspiracy...

That must have been sneaky and thorough conspirateurs to be able to place explosives on every floor of the towers. Unless they could predict which floors the airliners would hit; Thirteen floors apart.

And then blow the correct floors by remote radio control and not somewhere else where it might look suspicious.
:-/

[classy man]

what really gets my goat is teh fact that teh cia was prolly in kahoots with al-ki-A-duh. you people who think that the gov'ment wouldn't just as soon as kill us all, think of all teh money the would get if we wre all daed. there wood be billyons to be made. get your heads out of yer cracks and think for once. i think kappas onto somethin here. so clam up unless you got BETTER THEORIES!!

[Stringer]

He's the original classiest classy man, and his absence was felt!!

[hblair]

Originally posted by kappa
kieran, the entire collapse of the towers are contributed to fire... NOT THE IMPACT OF THE PLANES... Agian.. NOT THE IMPACT OF THE PLANES... Should I type it again?

The only logic needed to be applied is the simple logic that jetfuel will not and can not alone reach tempertures required to melt steel.. In every test ever conducted temperatures do not reach even the first critical temperature level of structual steel.. That is uninsulated steel at that..

I haven't read the entire thread here but, the above struck me as pretty goofy.

I'm no structural engineer, but how could the impact of the plane NOT have a signifigant role in the failure of the building? It slices into the structure haulin what? 300 mph+ ?, then the fuel sprays, ignites. You've got aluminum and magesium in there cookin real good. Fuels got all kind of ventilation coming in from all four corners. The floors are held in place by L bracket mild steel. Steel doesn't have to be ANYWHERE NEAR it's "melting point". Isn't structural steel pretty much mild steel? Mild steel doesn't have to be glowing to be severely weakened by heat. The weak link was the angle holding the bar joist floor supports. Once they were heating up and stretched, fell onto the lower floor, it was all over. The floor held the outer shell rigid. Once a few of them were gone the outer cloumns had no lateral support.

I can't believe that somebody could watch what we did that day and be so easily swayed by brain-dead conspiracy theories.

[kappa]

Swayed by brain dead conspiracy theories? Easily? I suppose its a matter of opinion. These brain-dead conspiracy theorist at least attempt to apply thought to an unexplained situation even if it is extremely radical.

I for one, as many, when confronted with unanswered questions choose to consider the entire event. I can not get by the lack of reasons concluding why (and I steal Tilt's words here because its the single most elegant and graceful line in the thread) building #7 fell in apparent sympathy for Towers 1 & 2.

FEMA in it's offical government report cites that fire could be the possible cause of #7s fall. Yet no jet fuel nor jet parts nor debris from towers 1 & 2 damaged #7 structualy. Two small fires, which were of the size to be managable by the buildings local fire protection, where buring inside #7. These fires themselfs are unanswered as they burnt in some of the middle floors in the middle of the building of #7. Apparently #7 burnt in sympathy for the towers as well. Then, with pre-notification to surrounding emergency workers, #7 fell to the ground at apparent free-fall speeds and appeared to collaspe in a classic demolishtion style fall. I have yet to dispute any of these facts and seen nothing to challenge these facts.

Seven buildings that day were destroyed. All were WTC buildings. No other buildings were impacted with anymore than slight cosmetic damage. Buildings as close or closer than #7 from ground zero recieved nothing more than cosmetic damage. A plan that would leave america's greatest military strategists in awe.. A marvel, to say the least, of tactical cognitive thinking and planning. Hate the terrorist? For certain! But you must admire them for their intellectual abilty to plan such an attack. One carried out flawlessly bringing down 7 buidlings with 2 aircraft and zero bombs. Clearly an attack worthy of being studied for decades to come by the greatest of military minds.

[Kieran]

FEMA in it's offical government report cites that fire could be the possible cause of #7s fall. Yet no jet fuel nor jet parts nor debris from towers 1 & 2 damaged #7 structualy. Two small fires, which were of the size to be managable by the buildings local fire protection, where buring inside #7. These fires themselfs are unanswered as they burnt in some of the middle floors in the middle of the building of #7. Apparently #7 burnt in sympathy for the towers as well. Then, with pre-notification to surrounding emergency workers, #7 fell to the ground at apparent free-fall speeds and appeared to collaspe in a classic demolishtion style fall. I have yet to dispute any of these facts and seen nothing to challenge these facts.

1. FEMA cannot conclusively say what caused the collapse. It's not the same as saying they have no clues, or that they are covering anything up.

2.  What you are calling "predetermination" is how you choose to interpret the firefighters' words when they said they were "pulling it now"... which is as easily interpreted as "Let's get our boys out of there". Of all the things you've posted in this conspiracy theory, this is the most sketchy. Now you are calling it proof. Funny stuff, really.

3. Your "freefall" argument has already been defeated over and over.

You aren't listening. You aren't being honest.

[lazs2]

I take comfort in the fact that they will get kappa and all his friends before they get me.

lazs

[kappa]

Originally posted by lazs2
I take comfort in the fact that they will get kappa and all his friends before they get me.

lazs

LoL Lazs... dont be so sure! the women could be mobalizing as you type...

Keiarn: my gawd man.. how has my free-fall idea been defeated?
Explain in your words.. lmao  thats an impossibility..

When has the government ever stopped investigating something it could not explain when all the evidence lay right infront?? There are no more investigations into #7's collapse.. Not government investigation..

[NUKE]

Was building 7 connected underground in any way to 1 & 2?

Could the massive impact and pressure from 1 & 2 falling have pushed burning material through underground passages and into vetilation or elevator shafts into 7?

Could debris from 1 & 2 have entered any windows into 7?

Again, I would lean toward looking for reasonable explainations before I started assuming things that seam far fetched.

A marvel, to say the least, of tactical cognitive thinking and planning. Hate the terrorist? For certain! But you must admire them for their intellectual abilty to plan such an attack. One carried out flawlessly bringing down 7 buidlings with 2 aircraft and zero bombs. Clearly an attack worthy of being studied for decades to come by the greatest of military minds.

what kappa is saying here is that he believes there is a conspiracy involved........here we go again.

[Kieran]

Keiarn: my gawd man.. how has my free-fall idea been defeated?

You're being absurd. Your argument was structural collapse was not possible because the levels fell too quickly- you assumed it would take one second per floor to collapse, yet it fell at freefall speed. You have been given enumerous plausible reasons, whether you accept them or not. Your argument is totally defeated.

I've noticed that, for a man who says he likes to consider all the facts, you have an alarming tendency to ignore to data you disagree with.

Edit: "ignore" for "listen". Gimme a break, I was tired.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by midnight Target
There was this guy once named Velikovski

Who was charged with a politburo decree
That when the towers fell
To leave no commie smell
To prove the fault was not that of the KGB


yeah I know the time frame misses by a decade or so, but the rhyme was tougher if I blamed someone else.