Author Topic: Help on this reversal  (Read 873 times)

Offline TweetyBird

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Help on this reversal
« on: February 05, 2004, 03:03:22 PM »
In the p51 thread on the General discussion board, Wild thing writes...

>>Yes i know what your talking about  Were just pulling off a reversal, a mere barrel roll thats gentle but yet helps get on your 6. As the con is coming closer with more speed, he is subject to passing by faster than me, so i go up sideways, and i know he cant move with all that speed so i can pull up sharper and roll onto him before he even knows im there. Some cons against this move is that you do slow down alot, but nonetheless you do get a quick snapshot.<<

Here's my fancy smancy illustration of it...



Questions - how do it practice this reversal. I become disoriented turning sideways on the way up. And also, how do I spot this is being done to me and what do I do?

my image doesnt seem to be showing - ill try to fix that.
Thanks
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 03:07:13 PM by TweetyBird »

Offline WldThing

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2004, 03:40:01 PM »
Yes,  thats the same reversal i was thinking about.  The hardest thing to judge when your doing a reversal like this,  is the cons speed.  If he is close then he can join you in your barrel roll,  and he will have an easy 6 shot.  Timing is the god in not only this move but numerous others.  If you pull up too soon,  and the con is not as fast as you thought he can climb with you and get you in your climb.  Sooo what it comes down to is the timing sequence,  and when you should go up..

Now if you can judge the cons speed and his closure rate,  you should be set,  but for now i can tell you i dont pull up when he's 600-800 out,  (remember,  depending on the cons speed).  When you see him shooting at 400-450 its too late to pull off the move,  so i go into a flat turn or barrel roll to avoid hits.    So we come down to the closure..  500 -550 seems like a reasonable time to pull and get ready for your next move.  Again you have to remember,  that everything depends on how fast he closes (With time you will almost have a 6th sense on your cons speed).  

Ok Next part:  So now your gonna get him to overshoot,  with your 6 view you see that he cant follow you up in your climb,  since hes probebly blacking out or doesnt know where you have went.   And so now i know that when i climbed up he was about 500-550 out and he's closing at a rapid rate,  but he has no idea what im about to do next,  so he continues to go straight and is ready to climb..  I kick in the rudder to the left ****BEFORE**** he goes under my belly.  Doing a quick barrel roll so i end up from where i was on his right wing to his left wing,  a plain barrel roll with a full rudder.  The faster you do the roll the faster you will have the shot.  He sure has no idea where you have went since you've done that barell roll,  he has no started to do climb steadily,  and is thinking of his next stunt..  

And now your on his left wing,  you HAVE to REMEMBER 85% of AH pilots pull up after a BnZ RUN, therefore you pull up WITHOUT even seeing if he will be up there in a vertical position.  Your waiting for him to see if he will cross your aim and you dont see him yet,  so what you have to do is PUSH on the stick a little,  (you dont want to do push too hard to cause a redout,  and lose alot of E) and There he is!!!  Only 300-350 yards away,  you blaze your guns and he starts flaming like a ball of fire.  

You have attempted and succesfully pulled off the maneuvar, now your gonna go buy WT some coffee and a donut :D .. hehe

Seriously tho,  in written words it is hard to understand what goes thru my head,  i have done this move thousands of times,  and as i was writing this i remember one of the times ive pulled it off and therefore ive tried explaining it to you the best of my ability.  There is nothing like "hands-on-learning",  but of course it is best to know what your gonna pull off in your head,  before you  get to the main course.  

There is of course an easier move,  that is similar to this one,  but it requires alot more luck..  I can explain this one later on if you wish.  

Shoot any questions you may have.

Offline WldThing

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Re: Help on this reversal
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2004, 03:49:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
And also, how do I spot this is being done to me and what do I do?


Alrighty...   This one is alot easier to answer...    

If you know your fighting a good pilot,  for say Levi,  i know he can pull of that same reversal i do,  so what im gonna do is just Extend in level flight,  DO NOT go up into that vertical or you will die.  

Now i know in the MA you never know who your opponent will be,  so you gotta be alot more careful when pulling the move off..  You have to watch what your opponent does,  if you see him going sideways and pulling up,  you can farely say he will do a barrel roll on yas,  so if you were pulling up into the vertical before you knew what he was doing,  you have to level your plane and continue in a level flight,  he will have an impossible shot since your the one with the speed,  the con will only have so much Energy to climb with you,  before he falls down to earth.  

Hope that helped...

Offline Drano

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2004, 03:51:58 PM »
Etch, what's going on here is akin to a judo move. You're using your NME's superior speed against him.

A plane going straight(plane A) will be able to travel from point A to point B faster than a plane that takes a more curving route(plane B). Their forward motion is in the same relative direction.

In this setup (we're talking similar planes here), plane A is very fast or at least faster than plane B and is closing hard on plane B's 6. The idea here is to force Plane A to overshoot completely, or at least put him ahead of plane B's 3/9 line where he's not a threat for a gunshot. Plane B's pilot on seeing plane A close starts a barrel roll but is still heading in the same relative forward direction as plane A is. (Say if plane A is heading straight north, plane B can barrel roll and still be heading north thru the whole manuever, he's just taking a longer route. Hope I'm explaning relative motion so you can understand it.)

The barrel roll accomplishes two things. Firstly, it will make for a more difficult shot for plane A as plane B is no longer a straight and level target. Secondly, it forces the overshoot as the rate of closure has increased because plane B has not only slowed its overall speed by doing the manuever, but its also slowed its forward motion relative to plane A as its no longer travelling in a straight line as plane A is.

As plane A passes there will be a brief oppurtunity for a snap shot. Plane B's pilot should be following plane A in his views timing his roll to come out on plane A's rear where he can fire. Plane B should not force a shot by trying to follow plane A--especially if he goes up-- as doing the roll will come at a cost in speed. Always be mindful of your E state. Don't get roped!

Timing is critical here. If plane A is very fast he can just continue on and extend out of guns range. If plane A follows the barrel roll what has developed is called a rolling scissors. Both planes continue barrel rolling, the idea here is for one plane to slow his forward motion faster than the other guy putting his opponent out in front so as to shoot him. The winner of this battle will be the guy that can better ride the edge in his rolls.

If things even out at this point the rolls will generally continue and you'll both drop altitude at which point terra firma will preclude barrel rolling. Here you'll start a series of nose to nose turns reversing after each pass. This is called a flat scissors. At this point you should both be very low on E. Guy who wins this will again be best at riding the edge but also has a better sense of when to reverse his turns. Guy with better timing should win.

Gotta factor in some other things tho. If one guys is more proficient in use of flaps he'll have an advantage. If one guy is a bit lighter on fuel than the other guy he'll have an advantage. Lighter planes will handle better than heavier ones. Of course that's considering equal pilots too. ; )

That's the general idea.

      Drano
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S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

FSO flying with the 412th Friday Night Volunteer Group

Offline TweetyBird

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2004, 04:59:21 PM »
I think I've been a little confused of what a barrel roll was. As I take it from the explanations, its like flying a corkscrew pattern arround a straight path,i.e., the relative forward motion of the plane stays more or less constant, but the path on that axis is looping making a corkscrew shape.The WThing evasive is like half a barrel roll.

I guess it just takes practice to stay oriented during the maneuver. I can stay oriented in a flat scissors, so I guess in time I'll be able to work more verticle motion into it. I do know moves don't happen in a vaccum and timing is everything. But now I have an idea,of the path I'm trying to create relative to the targets path, and its purpose.

Thanks to both of you, the explanations helped a lot.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 05:02:38 PM by TweetyBird »

Offline Hornet

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2004, 06:09:39 PM »
what gets fun is when roles are reversed and you are the attacker...

a good general rule is never pull pure pursuit (pipper on the bogey) unless you intend to shoot. Since the key for this whole thing is speed differential...on attack you want to mask that E as much as possible. Keep your nose slightly high and behind the nme as you close...slipping the aircraft can also play havoc with guys E judgement and timing as well.

sometimes guys get so focused on setting a reversal they will continue to bleed E to maintain the differential in turn radius...enough that its to your advantage to feint the first attack and be the first to get in the vertical...done correctly you dupe guys into extending their nose-up altitude out of the barrel roll into a rope-a-dope situation - again its all timing.

have fun :)
Hornet

Offline BigMax

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2004, 08:42:37 PM »
Just fly baby.....

Timing is crucial for its succes...  But the first time you do the barrel roll reversal properly, it will really get your blood pumping and you'll either get a big , or be accused of cheating....  Either way, it's hugely satisfying!

Offline Drano

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2004, 09:35:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
I think I've been a little confused of what a barrel roll was. As I take it from the explanations, its like flying a corkscrew pattern arround a straight path,i.e., the relative forward motion of the plane stays more or less constant, but the path on that axis is looping making a corkscrew shape.The WThing evasive is like half a barrel roll.

The direction of the forward motion stays constant. The speed of the forward motion of the corkscrewing plane will be less.


I guess it just takes practice to stay oriented during the maneuver. I can stay oriented in a flat scissors, so I guess in time I'll be able to work more verticle motion into it. I do know moves don't happen in a vaccum and timing is everything. But now I have an idea,of the path I'm trying to create relative to the targets path, and its purpose.

If you've got it in a flat scissors it sounds like you're on your way. Keep at it and give it a lil more time.


Thanks to both of you, the explanations helped a lot.


Anytime bro. :aok

Drano
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 09:39:19 PM by Drano »
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Offline TweetyBird

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2004, 10:52:27 PM »
>>There is of course an easier move, that is similar to this one, but it requires alot more luck.. I can explain this one later on if you wish. <<

Any tips on easier moves that are a stepping stone to harder moves would be greatly appreciated. I have no time table. I just want to get to be as good as pilot as I can be by skill and not some ranking nuance. If I walk into the DA as a 1500 ranked fighter want to fight like a 1500 ranked pilot and not a 4000 ranked pilot. Now that comes out a little wrong, because I really don't care about rank. The point is I want to increase my skill level as much as possible. Dieing doesn't bother me if I'm learning.

Didn't mean for this turn into an Etch testament, just wanted to make clear if there are things (no matter how game fatal) that will help my skill level, please share :D

Offline WldThing

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2004, 09:46:25 AM »
Ok now to explain the move that may be a little harder to pull off,  but not that complicated to understand..

In critical situations i have used a move where i pull up and dont do a barrel roll,  in fact i will stay suspended in air while the con is moving under my belly,  and all i do is push on the stick when he has passed me.  Then find him in my sites..

Ive done it a couple times,  it has worked on some and not on others,  it just matters who you use it up against..  Pulling off the move at about the same distance as i indicated above,  just without the obvious barrel roll.  You can give it a try couple times see if it does anything for yas.  Then go back to practicin the other reversal :)

Offline Kweassa

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2004, 11:07:06 AM »
All very good advices, TB. And yes, that is a classic case of a barrel roll. For both the defending side and the attacking side, judgement between the speed difference is crucial. All I can add is a few pragmatic pointers in actual application:

1. Obviously, as a defender, you must not pull this move if the enemy is slowly closing behind you - unless you are absolutely sure the attacker is poor in skill and will be overshot.

 That is because, if the enemy has more or less simular skill level as you do, he will probably anticipate a reversal coming and slow down so he does not overshoot. And of course, in that case you become a sitting duck.

2. A plane that is generally poor in maneuverability compared to the attacking plane must not try this reversal unless, as above, you are sure that the attacker is poor in skill.

 Even if you have succeeded in the initial reversal, a better maneuvering plane can immediately go into a hard maneuver and quickly shift its position behind you again - or, if the attacking pilot is very skilled, he could go into a even wider barrel roll than yours as he is being overshot and bring back the situation to right where it was in the first place (even worse!).

3. Generally, this type of reversal is usually wielded by skilled people in maneuverable planes who boast excellent gunnery. They see a plane closing behind their six fast and then at the crucial moment, pull a barrel roll. As the enemy overshoots and passes into the front he tries a long tracking shot behind the extending enemy.

4. As Wldthing said, it is generally very poor judgement to pull upwards after you realize you've been suckered by this move. Skilled pilots lure you into a situation where the margin of speed difference slowly diminishes - this means, more often that not, the margin of difference in the energy state between you the attacker, and he the defender, becomes minimal, or even non-existent as you are being overshot.

 In panic, generally inexperienced pilots pull upwards - which, in trying so they are exposing themselves into serious danger. Even worse, is after being overshot, they pull upwards, and then sees the enemy behind at 600. They get scared so they keep pulling the stick, and enter a loop - which in that case, 9 times out of 10 they end up dead.

5. The most dangerous enemies who use these moves, are those in Spit9s or N1K2s. Those planes aren't particularly fast, but have the ability to maintain fast speeds once they have gained enough speed in the first place.  They disregard rule #1 above, and bravely try a reversal when the enemy behind is closing in slowly, not fast. If they succeed, you are overshot and extending away from them at a slow speed(since when you approached him in the attack run, you were closing in slowly). You're chance of survival immediately drops near zero if they have the ability to snipe planes at over 400 yards.

6. Therefore, you must develop a judgement on which enemies are gonna try a reversal, and which not.

 Generally, the ones who will try reversals, are the ones who you know that he saw you coming. For instance, when you were approaching him from another angle, he reacts and maneuvers. But as you approach him again from the 6oc position, he suddenly seems to act dumb and starts a shallow dive without any movement. 9 times out of 10, he's planning a reversal. Looking behind, seeing the range closing, and at about 600~700 yards he goes into a barrel roll that drops under, not floats over. Be prepared for that.

7.  There are many variations to these moves. The most favorite one by many pilots is entering this type of sudden barrel roll during a turn. They see an enemy behind them. They enter a shallow, spiralling dive with a wide radius. The speeds for both the attacker and the defender builds.. and as the attacker comes closer, the defender pulls into a tighter turn so both of them near the verge of black out. And then, as the attacker enters a hard lead turn to get a shot in, the defender suddenly enters a quick barrel roll and the tables can be turned decisvely.

8. Much simularly, this move can be pulled off during a dive - both planes enter a near verical dive, the attacker chases. But the speeds build very quickly so black outs are imminent. As the attacker closes in, the defender chops throttle, gives full rudder, and starts a powerful roll - in this case the attacker overshoots during a dive so it is very deadly. I've pulled this one off against Typhoons in a Fw190 - the Typhoons are very fast divers, but roll poorly. The 190 retains a good roll rate upto very high speeds.

9. Another variation, is a barrel roll during a full 90 degrees verical - this one's extremely hard to pull off, but feels like a million bucks if you succeed. When an enemy plane is behind you at a very close distance, and when both you the defender and he the attacker are fast, and you somehow manage to avoid his bullets. In those situations, you can try a very sudden pull upwards. He'll try to follow you. Both of you will most probably enter momentary black out. But as you pull, you give hard rudder and enterl a wide roll - you can see the enemy coming straight up behind you, and then overshooting you during a straight vertical, and pulling in front of you helplessly. It's a maneuver very hard to see in AH, but more easily seen in IL2/FB.

Offline lucull

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Help on this reversal
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2004, 11:43:56 AM »
Ever tried the "Rolling Scissors"?

Quote
Rolling Scissors
While a flat scissors often follows a slow-speed, horizontal overshoot, the
rolling scissors more often results from a high-speed overshoot or an
overshoot resulting from a high-to-low attack. In this situation, the defender
pulls up to reduce both speed and the forward component of his
velocity, further adding to the attacker's overshoot problems; then he rolls
toward his opponent, continuing to pull the nose directly toward the
attacker's constantly changing position. If the attacker continues to pull
directly toward the defender, the fighters begin to develop twin spiraling
flight paths as each performs barrel rolls around the other. Figure 2-20
depicts this scenario.
(Image removed from quote.)

From: Robert L. Shaw, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, Naval Institute Press, 1988,  page 53 f