AR's recipe for a good American

[lazs2]

MT... I think that most here are familiar with yur "afirmative action" view on race relations.

ravels..  I think the monopoly issue was covered.   As for the rest... you need to be specific.   What dogma are you talking about exactly?  As for "badly argued"... I seen no arguement in the "manifesto" at all...    

If you would be so kind as to tell me what area you dissagree with... perhaps one at a time as I am pretty slow and can't take in too many things at once?

lazs

[midnight Target]

Equating AA to "punishment" of the white man is just silly. Overstating is too kind of an observation.

If the guy next to you needs $100 and you only need $50... and I give the guy next to you $50... you are even. I haven't punished you. If you both get what you need... you are even and you still haven't been punished. If you both get the same amount the other guy is still behind.... and you STILL haven't been punished.

Why don't we instead take a reasoned look at why some folks might be in a hole, then help them out.

And lazs.. I covered a lot more than just race relations above.

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by midnight Target

Why don't we instead take a reasoned look at why some folks might be in a hole, then help them out.

Very nice little hypothetical situation you set up, and some do deserve this help, however, the fact is, many don't want to do a whole lot about getting out of their situation. There are too many like that in this 'hole', and the hole is becoming too deep(over 400 billion in 2001). Why should I toss large percentages of my money into that hole when I could be spending that money on my family? What happened to my desire and freedom to accumulate material wealth that I've worked for? What happened to the survival instinct of this poor schlub that's so hopelessly stuck in the 'hole'.

[mietla]

Originally posted by midnight Target
If the guy next to you needs $100 and you only need $50... and I give the guy next to you $50... you are even. I haven't punished you.

you see, you've forgotten to mention that in your scenario, you, the giver (the government)  have no money of your own.

This is how it really works. You  (the great equalizer), take the wallet from my pocket, take out $50 and give it to the other dude, so we can be "even".

Did you punish me, hell yes, how can't you see that?

You've given something which belonged to me (money, job, scholarship, whatever), and gave it to someone else on a premise that the other guy's great-grandfather was wronged.

You violate my rights today, to correct the gewneralized, hypothetical, heredital wrongs 400 years ago.

[ravells]

Lasz - have you read my earlier post? No: 518 on this thread.

Ravs

[mietla]

I understand that many people support AA. Some because it benefits them, some because they feel a collective guilt or whatever other reason.


But claiming that AA does not hurt anyone, and that it works its magic without a cost is simply intellectually dishonest.

If you resign from your  job in order to make an opening for some someone you think is oppressed, I'll salute you.

If you ask me to do the same, I'll refuse, and I'll ask you to respect my decision.

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by mietla
You violate my rights today, to correct the gewneralized, hypothetical, heredital wrongs 400 years ago.

400 years ago? My people were almost wiped from the Earth just 60 years ago--where's my $50?

Oh yeah, I forgot, the Palistinians want it back.

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Pretty thought provoking stuff there, MZ.

So tell me, which character do you play on the show?

MZ is actually Morely Safer.

[Capt. Pork]

I knew I should have paid more attention.


Strange. I lived in LA county for 6 years, moving just last year, and never once picked up on the universal signifinance of our Southern Cousin.

[lazs2]

so MT... you believe in communism?   To each according to his needs?   Such bull... If someone needs something and you take it away from me...I am being cheated..  you act like I did nothing to earn what I have and that the person who has little is simply unfortunate...   How do you seperate the lazy and criminal from the unfortunate?   Even if you could (and you can't)Why should I help anyone unless it is my choice?  

morally... why should I not help friends and family before I help unnamed strangers with money extorted from me under threat of vilolence or prison?

lazs

[midnight Target]

Are you saying that ther is no evidence that groups of people have been systematically barred from the same opportunities as other groups of people? Dig your head out of the sand man.

and BTW, would you suggest one of those Makarov's as a good first weapon?

[lazs2]

no... I am not saying that prejudice never existed or that it will ever be wiped out... I am saying the the best way to make it continue in its worst forms is to take from one group and give their earnings to another based on skin color.   or... to do anything based on skin color.   The people that have blended in the best are those who made the least of this.

makarov... probly not.   we talking handguns right?   The mak is simple and safe and reliable (it's friggin russian man!)  but... it's small and uses about the most powerful round ever used in a blowback pistol... it will recoil... a lot... it's a friggin military and police gun.   It won't be "safe" if you remove the clip and forget to rack the round out of the chamber.   It has no loaded chamber indicator... is it loaded or not?  is the sfety on or off?   hold on bad guy while i figure all this out.   No problem for me since all my semiautos are loaded with one in the chamber and the hammer down and I don't use safeties.  

first handguns?   get a revolver.   In 357.   you can shoot 38's out of it and .357's  38's son't recoil much and don't cost much.   flip open the cyl and you know if it's loaded or not.   years, many handguns latter... the old .357 will still be worth having.  Just my opinion but pretty much the concensus of most gun owners.   You can hit something in the dark at 6' or take it out and plink at cans 100 yards away.

lazs

[miko2d]

midnight Target: Equating AA to "punishment" of the white man is just silly. Overstating is too kind of an observation.

If the guy next to you needs $100 and you only need $50... and I give the guy next to you $50... you are even. I haven't punished you. If you both get what you need...

 Your example is not punishment - but it is not an example of an Affirmative Action either. Your action is an action of voluntary charity by a private individual while AA is an action of coercion by the state, based on regulation and taxes.

 If you take my $50 and give it to the guy next to me, that would be punishment.
 If you threaten violence to an potential employer in order to make him hire the guy next to me despite my superior qualification, that woudl be punishment.


Are you saying that ther is no evidence that groups of people have been systematically barred from the same opportunities as other groups of people?

 Do your refer to the legal racist oppression of blacks like slavery and segregation laws or do you refer to personal refusal of some racist whites to do bisiness with blacks?
 The first is unjust. The second is just a freedom of association.

 The first is gone - there are no laws that restrict any races or groups.

 If you think the second type of racism is a big deal, then you must necessarily believe in the inherent inferiority of the black people. Do you?

 miko

[lazs2]

eeeeewww.... yur right of course but... glad you said it instead of me.

lazs

[ravells]

Interesting point, Miko...but let me ask you this:

Do you think that government aid (e.g. sending groups to help earthquake, flood victims etc) from the west to poorer countries is theft of money from taxpayers?

Should all aid to the less fortunate be carried out on an individual basis only?

Ravs