Author Topic: Kurland Question  (Read 2081 times)

Offline Bullethead

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Kurland Question
« on: March 01, 2004, 10:10:27 PM »
I just looked at the Kurland page and see that this is virtually the same thing as last year's Niemen scenario.  This brings up a question...........

Overall, I thought the Niemen scenario was great in many ways.  However, it had 1 tragic flaw that made it impossible for the Russians to win:  German scorched earth tactics.  

In Niemen, all the Germans had to do to win was destroy a couple of VHs each frame.  The worst part was, they could destroy their own VHs, not just Russian VHs, so they could do this before the Russians had a chance to prevent it.  This absolutely prevented the Russians from advancing more than 1 field per frame, regardless of the outcome of any combat between players.  The Germans could have lost every single player-vs-player engagement, but they'd still have won the sceanrio.  Because the Russians had to go more than 4 fields to win the scenario, no matter how they tried to do it, there was no way the Russians could win.

I just read the rules but I didn't see anything that prevents this from happening again.  While victory isn't totally about territorial gain, that's a large part of it, and if the Germans can just blow up VHs again, they'll win again :(

So please tell me whether or not scorched earth will be allowed in Kurland.  If it is, then I'll sit this one out.

Offline Batz

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Kurland Question
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2004, 08:55:44 AM »
There will be some level of scorched earth in regards to bridges.

In terms of VHS and FHs Brady and I believe that to get the best out of the event it should focus on human vs. human combat. We feel simply destroying a hanger to stop an assault or defense takes away from the type of game play we are striving to achieve.

Until we have a chance to discuss this in detail with the side COs (we are just gearing up this week) I canít give any definitive answers. However, Brady and I agree with your concerns.

The webpage is 90% done. We plan to go through each item with the side COs and there maybe some tweaking as we go along. I will update the webpage regularly as needed.

This event is similiar to Neimen (in fact it could be considered the final phase; Bagaration, Neimen, Kurland) btu the victory conditions are different.

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Kurland Question
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2004, 02:21:58 PM »
I've posted this once before but it was in off-topic forum, so many won't have seen it.

German situation in Kurland pocket as the German command saw it on January 24th 1945.
Snefens, Lentolaivue 34.
Location: Aarhus, Denmark

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Offline Batz

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Kurland Question
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2004, 02:39:33 PM »
I have seen it, this type of map was used in by OKH for their daily situation reports. They were updated daily (of course) and are known as "Heereslage Ost" (Ost in this case). They are valuable because they show Russian unit location as they were anticipated by the German Intelligence (Ic). But they dont give the complete situation, only what the Germans themselves believed.

Heres 3 more of the same type

linked because of size

Kurland Nov 25 1944

Kurland Dec 15 1944

Kurland Jan 14 1945

Heeresgruppe Mitte

Vistula-Oder Jan 15 1945

Heres the OOB for both the 1st and 2nd Baltic Front I collected from various sources:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Kurland/soviet.htm
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 02:42:05 PM by Batz »

Offline Bullethead

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Kurland Question
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2004, 07:19:03 PM »
Batz said:
Quote
Brady and I agree with your concerns.


Damn, let's carve the date and time in stone and celebrate on every anniversary.  This has got to be the 1st time we've agreed on anything :D.  

Seriously, though, I'm glad you're aware of this potential problem.

Quote
There will be some level of scorched earth in regards to bridges.


You might want to reconsider that.  IMHO, destroying bridges is as at least as bad a scenario-killer as destroying VHs.  It just doesn't come into play as often.

From what I saw in Niemen, the deal with bridges was that they hit the Russians where they were most vulnerable, due to the way they were forced to play out a frame.  In a nutshell, the Niemen map's hoards of "camps" and "defending troops" made it pretty much impractical to prep a field for capture with GVs.  They just couldn't do it fast enough to advance on schedule for the frame.  Thus, the Russians were forced to do almost all their prepping with aircraft.  This got most of them killed, due to the deadly ack and the Germans always being able to have major alt on them.  Thus, by about the middle of the frame, the Russian side was almost totally reduced to GVs.  

If the Russians had taken anything beyond a bridge thanks to aircraft prepping, the only way they could defend it was to drive GVs across the bridge from wherever their home bases were at the start of the frame.  This was because they just didn't have many planes left.  But after the early Russian air attacks had been destroyed, the German Stukas could fly unopposed and cut the bridge with 2000kg bombs.  Then it was German jabos and Tigers destroying whatever GVs the Russians still had across the bridge, followed by German recapture of everything on the far bank.  This could happen every frame, as long as the bridge's map room was on the German side of the river.  Then the Russians could never retain possession of the bridge, so could never start there in the next frame.  So the process would be repeated for the rest of the scenario.  Only if the Russians owned the bridge could they base there and no have to worry about crossing it.

Offline Batz

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Kurland Question
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2004, 07:50:41 PM »
The terrain is still in progress but as now there are only 2 rivers and only 1 in the battle area. Actually the peninsula was littered with marshes and small rivers. Water tiles being 1 mile in Ah we decided to just put in the "main" water ways. The terrain is a winter scape.

We also proposed river "fords" by using a runway or road object so that if a bridge is blown the force wishing to cross could do so at these simulated shallow water points. They would be skinned to closely match the water tile. As of now we donít think these are necessary but it may change again.

As of now we are still working on the bridge objects so I can't say how it will turn out. I can tell you that both Brady and I have talked at length about these issues. Our objective is to create an event where by the frames are decided by direct human-to-human combat rather then strictly building battling.

There will be bombing, territory capture and, with the German ground forces, re-supply by SEA.

We will attempt to keep everyone who is interested up to date on the progress and descisions we make.

Offline Bullethead

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Kurland Question
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2004, 09:49:27 PM »
Batz said:
Quote
The terrain is still in progress but as now there are only 2 rivers and only 1 in the battle area. Actually the peninsula was littered with marshes and small rivers. Water tiles being 1 mile in Ah we decided to just put in the "main" water ways. The terrain is a winter scape.


Well, I figure you've got at least an outline of the terrain enough to know about where what type of field will be.  Then you can gauge how much ground the Russians have to take to win.  If there's one of these bridges in the way, then think carefully about which side of the river you put the map room.  If it's on the German side, then IMHO that bridge is effectively uncrossable for the duration of the scenario.  Of course, even with the map room on the Russian side, you'd still have to have a GV spawn on the German side or cutting the bridge would still render it an impassable obstacle for the Russians.

Quote
We also proposed river "fords" by using a runway or road object so that if a bridge is blown the force wishing to cross could do so at these simulated shallow water points. They would be skinned to closely match the water tile. As of now we donít think these are necessary but it may change again.


GVs don't move very fast.  Again, you have to look at the whole map and the victory condition based on territorial conquest.  If the Russians are pressed for time at GV speeds, then you can't have the fords too far from the bridges.  Otherwise, the fords would be effectively useless.

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Our objective is to create an event where by the frames are decided by direct human-to-human combat rather then strictly building battling.


That's all I can ask :)

Quote
We will attempt to keep everyone who is interested up to date on the progress and descisions we make.


I'm here.

Offline Batz

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Kurland Question
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2004, 08:17:03 AM »
This map is what we are using as a guide. The map is 4x smaller then Neimen (256x 256). Objects that are circled are already placed.

Theres 2 rivers, the Wenta and Daugava River. The Wenta is in the battle area and in actuality divides the the 1st and 2nd Baltic fronts. So there will be attack lanes either side of the river.


Offline Batz

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Kurland Question
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2004, 06:05:58 PM »
The maps I linked above have moved. For those interested go here

http://photos.yahoo.co.jp/ayane1994