Garand vs Enfield vs Kar 98

[SunTracker]

These are the WW2 battle rifles of the U.S., England, and Germany, respectively.

I see the Garand clearly as being superior.  8 round clip, semi-automatic, quick reloading.  It had some minor faults, but nothing serious.

So why did England and Germany stay with antiquated designs?

[Ripsnort]

My dads garand used to bloody my damned thumb!

[Dune]

Couple of things:

The US's main rifle at the start of the war was the 1903A3 Springfield, a bolt-action rifle.  Semi-auto's were new to the scene.

The UK couldn't afford to try and build a new rifle.  They needed all the Lee's they could get.

The antiquated Lee was used by the British Army as a sniper weapon until the 80's.

The Mauser action is still state-of-the-art for bolt action weapons.  

A fast rifleman with a Lee could shot almost as fast as a Garand.

I think, in all, compared to the Garand you dismiss the effectveness and quality of the Lee and Mauser without reason.

[GtoRA2]

They are all fine rifles.


But a good man with a M1 is going to beat an equal man with the Kar or the Enfield.


The M1 was a fantastic rifle. Its only real drawsbacks where, you could not reload the clip in the gun and it was heavy.

Didn't Hitler at some point ban the manufacture of Rifles?

Wasnt the Springfield based on the  mauser action? Did we pay license fees for some time for the design?

[Dune]

Yes, the Springfield is based on the Mauser action.  I own two Springfield 1903A3's.  One is a very nice military and the other is a sporterized .338 Win Mag.

[acepilot2]

m1 garand would rule, but between a lee and mauser the mauser could probably defeat the lee.

[Gunslinger]

I think, just to put into context, marksmenship training needs to be put into the mix here as well.

I know from reading that the US Marines were one of the last to finally pick up the garand.  Before hand the Marines did not want semi auto weapons....they wanted well trained shooters that could take out targets well over 500 yards away.  Semi autos give people the ability to just send rounds down range and poor on the fire thus negating most REAL marksmenship.  In the pacific the fighting changed as Marines would fight for every inch of an Island.  The fighting was close and bloody thus a semi auto weapon prevailed over traditional proven tactics.

Bolt action weapons in the hands of trained marksmen in certain environments can be hella more effective than a lesser trained shooter with a semi auto.  Dont get me wrong the Garand was a fine weapon and RIP most people bloodied their thumbs with it LOL

A good read is about the battle of belleau woods during WWI.  The Marines first chance to fight gave the germans a real bloody nose and earned them a nickname still used today.

[SunTracker]

The M1 was just as accurate as the Kar 98 or Enfield.

You actually could reload a clip inside the M1.

I seriously doubt either a Kar98 or Enfield could fire anywhere near as fast as an M1.

[Batz]

The Germans developed a semi auto but it never replaced the Kar 98.

Gewehr 43 / Karabiner  43(mauser produced)

Between 43 to the end of the war only 402713 were produced.

Gewehr 33/40, 98/40 & Gew 43

This design was already in production in Czechoslovakia at the Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Akciova Spolecnost works when war broke out and after the German invasion, this factory was renamed Waffenfabrik Brunn. One of the rifle designs that was produced there was redesignated in 1940 as the Gewehr 33/40 and produced for the German Army in this factory.
 
    This weapon had a short barrel of only 490mm making it an unpleasant weapon to fire. The short barrel  ensured that the propellant did not burn out properly in the barrel, resulting in a large muzzle blast and flame omitting from the gun. It was mainly issued to Gebirgsjäger troops who sometimes used it as an aid for climbing in rocky terrain and a metal plate was fitted to the stock to protect it from rocks etc.

    Another order for a rifle design was placed as a commercial arrangement with the Hungarian government with supervision for the production provided by the Germans. The factory for production (which was renamed by the Germans) for this weapon was known as Metallwaren Waffen und Maschinenfabrik.  Basically a Hungarian design, the Germans made some changes to the specification. The most significant changes were replacement of the Mannlicher type 35mm clip loading to house the Mauser type and the changing of the calibre from 8mm x 56, to 7.92mm.

    The Gewehr Gew. 41 made by Walther differed from other models with its muzzle type-gas trap system with an annular piston, with the piston rod being on top of the barrel. The locking system used hinged flaps that locked into the sides of the main body.  The magazine was fixed and loaded by clips from the top and this was just one of the disadvantages of the weapon with the other being the muzzle cap gas system which was eventually replaced by a different system, as well as a the adoption of a removable magazine. This new weapon was designated the Gewehr 43 (G43)  and was often fitted with a sniper scope.  

Production began in 1943  but on the whole did not really prove itself in battlefield conditions. Mauser also produced a model of this weapon known as the Kar. 43 which also featured a muzzle trap gas system with an annular piston but with the piston rod below the barrel. The bolt had a two-lug rotating head that locked into the barrel extension. The weapon was striker fired and had a bolt action type cocking handle.  The magazine was fixed and was clip loaded by standard Mauser clips.

[GtoRA2]

Guns
 The was that the battle where the French had pulled back and told the Marines to pull back as well and they refused, and then the germans started coming and the Marines started shooting at 700 and 800 yards and the french told them "you can not hit at those ranges"
The Marines broke the attack before 500 yards?

[_Schadenfreude_]

Originally posted by SunTracker
These are the WW2 battle rifles of the U.S., England, and Germany, respectively.

I see the Garand clearly as being superior.  8 round clip, semi-automatic, quick reloading.  It had some minor faults, but nothing serious.

So why did England and Germany stay with antiquated designs?

Probably because they had thousands of rifles and millions and millions of rounds and the weapons were tried and tested.

[lasersailor184]

Yeah, the germans made the G43.  But it was one of the worst excuses for a rifle ever.  It's predecessory, the G41 would often break from the force of the bullets.




No contest, garand wins.

Guns
The was that the battle where the French had pulled back and told the Marines to pull back as well and they refused, and then the germans started coming and the Marines started shooting at 700 and 800 yards and the french told them "you can not hit at those ranges"
The Marines broke the attack before 500 yards?

The french?  I don't believe the french were ever in the pacific.

[GtoRA2]

SunTracker
 I know you can relaod the M1 clip while it is in the gun, but it is not an easy thing to do, If I feel the need I just pop the clip out and reload it out of the rifle.


I own one now. second best firearm purchase ever!

[GtoRA2]

Laser
 You are wrong on both counts. I was asking gunslinger about the battle of below woods in WW1 though the engagement I am thinking of was right before that I think


The french where in french indochina durring WW2, the basicaly surrendered to the japanese. They where also know to turn in US and allies personal to the Japanese to help them. So they where there, but not really on our side... hehe

Kind like the Vichy French in North Africa, who killed over 5000 US and British, when we invaded, but not a single german in the same time frame.

[lazs2]

the Garrand gets it's gas from very close to the muzzle so is very accurate.   Even Today it is hard to beat.   It is also very rugged and reliable but..

There is more to it's success and accuracy.   the ought six is a very powerful round, slightly more powerful than the .303 and mauser round and somewhat balisticly superior.  It is also rimless so more reliable.  other advantages that are no so tangible is that the weapon is pretty heavy and because it is gas operated it is a very gentle weapon to shoot...  if you don't flinch you are more accurate... no magazine and no bolt to work made shooting prone or from cover better.

lazs