Author Topic: MK108 damage photos, please ?  (Read 9950 times)

Offline J318

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2004, 03:24:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Karnak I've seen a pic of P-47 Thunderbolt which crashed due a single bullet from a rifle. Strange things happen but not too often.


Well the graet red baron himself was shot down with a bullet (i know the world at it's wife were shooting at him but only one hit him)

Offline Tony Williams

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2004, 02:29:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
I remember that thread Batz, think everybody were equally surprised to see the destructive power the 202 had, specially compared to what AH has.

Maybe Mr.Williams have more info about this??


I don't have any test information for the 12.7mm HE rounds. The Japanese seemed impressed by them, as they bought the ammo design for the 12.7x81SR from Italy, and their Ho-103 reportedly used Italian ammo initially until they developed their own.

However, the USA never fielded .50 cal HE even though some was developed and tested. They apparently didn't feel the calibre was big enough to be worth it, so stuck with AP/incendiary types. The Soviets did have HE for their 12.7mm, but I don't know how much use they got compared with their very good API (which was copied for the American .50 M8 loading).

One general comment I would make about individual shoot-downs is that performance figures quoted are only averages of a wide range of results; sometimes aircraft sustained many times the damage which should have brought them down, other times they were knocked down with minimal effort: random factors played a big part. My favourite story concerned the Bf 109 which was brought down by a single shot from a British Army officer's .38 revolver; it was flying very low and the bullet severed either a fuel or coolant line, I forget which. Both protagonists survived the war and met afterwards.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
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Offline Pongo

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2004, 10:34:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
I hope AH2 treats the 108 more realistically than the current AH does - have spent the lst two weeks playing FB and the 108 is the weapon of choice - it's effects are in line with what was reported historically and since the a/c are a lot tougher than in AH you only get a chance to make one or two hits....


But they have gone and made the 151/20 worthless.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #93 on: March 24, 2004, 07:25:01 AM »
Hi Hooligan,

>Can you tell me what document that data is from?

Some document originally provided by Karl.

Here's the data (upper table for 50%, lower table for 95%):

http://www.x-plane.org/users/hohun/weapons/mineshells.gif

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #94 on: March 24, 2004, 10:09:57 AM »
HoHun,

Can you help me in tracking down some MK 108 production totals ? How many were produced ? I need that 4 my site`s weapons section, already have for MG 151s (249 609) and MG 131s (144 124), just missing for the good ole` 108..

I would guess Fritz Hahn has such data in the Luftwaffe weapons book, however I cant get the book `cos some b@stard took it from the library for 2 years now, and "forgot" to bring it back ever since.. I guess you may probably have that book...

Any info would be welcome!

Offline Pei

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« Reply #95 on: March 25, 2004, 05:32:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams

One general comment I would make about individual shoot-downs is that performance figures quoted are only averages of a wide range of results; sometimes aircraft sustained many times the damage which should have brought them down, other times they were knocked down with minimal effort: random factors played a big part. My favourite story concerned the Bf 109 which was brought down by a single shot from a British Army officer's .38 revolver; it was flying very low and the bullet severed either a fuel or coolant line, I forget which. Both protagonists survived the war and met afterwards.
[/URL]


I think this a very good point that goes missing in these discussions. The effects of a hit wold not be constant, and might vary enormously.

Another point related to this is that damage to specific aircraft systems might be more important than gross structural damage. This is of course especially true of engines, fuel tanks and the pilot but a hit to control cables could be just as devastating.
In most flight sims a/c behave like they are made out of a number of chunks of wood: very few systems are modelled and division into different areas is not very fine. For example in AH you have 4 areas on the wing: innner wing, outer wing, aileron, flap. The only systems modelled are guns and possible chance of a fuel leak.  Once enough damage is done to a part falls off, otherwise it is still there working fine. IN realit even a hit from a small calibre ball or AP bullet might sever a control cable or set a fule tank on fire. Likewise a big cannon shell might detonate blowing a big hole in the wing but not destroying the spars or any vital systems. The difference between a kill and no useful damage might be a few centimetres or a slight change of impact angle. il2:FB does a better job of this than other games I have tried: the damage effects are more random and systems get damaged more often. Most of my il2 kills are through engine or fuel fires, pilot kills. In AH and other games most kills seem to come from gross strutural failures: you blow the wing or tailplane off.  In fact in il2 I find myself aiming for vulnerable points where as in AH i will just  aim for the largest part of a  fighter or the wing of a bomber, confident that a good burst will destroy some key part of the aircraft.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #96 on: March 25, 2004, 07:28:32 AM »
Hi Pei,

>I think this a very good point that goes missing in these discussions. The effects of a hit wold not be constant, and might vary enormously.

Actually, the table I posted covers just that.

Hit 20 four-engined bombers with 4 mine shells each, and 10 out of 20 will fly away.

When target saturation is reached, variation becomes very small though: Hit 20 bombers with 7 mine shells each, and only 1 out of the 20 will fly away.

>Another point related to this is that damage to specific aircraft systems might be more important than gross structural damage.

In fact, mine shells were designed to cause gross structural damage because combat experience showed that damage to specific aircraft systems wasn't good enough.

>Likewise a big cannon shell might detonate blowing a big hole in the wing but not destroying the spars or any vital systems.

The damage mechanism of mine shells relies on blowing big holes the wing's skin because the wing's skin actually is a vital load-bearing component in all-metal stressed-skin aircraft.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Dr Zhivago

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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #98 on: March 26, 2004, 08:12:26 AM »
These are the same two photos I posted, but in much better quality and they are in color! Great!

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #99 on: March 26, 2004, 11:01:09 AM »
Why did not the bigger, more powerful flak shell hit not do more damage? The 30mm in the British tests did.



Why does the B-26 still have a wing if it was hit by 30mm shells? Using the British tests as examples of the destructive power of the 30mm, the wing should have been blown clean off.:p


Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2004, 11:30:11 AM »
Quote
Why does the B-26 still have a wing if it was hit by 30mm shells? Using the British tests as examples of the destructive power of the 30mm, the wing should have been blown clean off.


`cos that`s the effect of two DUD MK 108 shells merely passing through. If you weren`t so dumb as you are, you could read that already. :lol But you`re just trolling as usual. Oh, congrats for your... uhm... 7th ? :D banning on Ubi forums for doing the same. :aok


Quote
Why did not the bigger, more powerful flak shell hit not do more damage? The 30mm in the British tests did.


I can`t see how the effect of the Blenheim is greater. The Blenheim was a much smaller aircraft than a B-26.

If you want to see what a direct Flak hit does, I can provide one that of a B-17 over Hungary, which had it`s whole nose section blown off and it went down shortly afterwards. Rather famous picture.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2004, 01:07:40 PM »
Have not bothered to re-register Barbi unlike you who has been banned again and has a couple of other aliases. The place is a cess pool with you and your henchmen, Huckles, Nicolas and Fw190fan (and their new aliases).:) Anyways, no need to, as your German is uber bs mentality is well known, now.:rofl :aok  If I did re-register, no doubt you and your henchmen would be crying to the mods like the little wimpy babies, you all are.


As to the 2 duds, the caption does not say they were duds.

"The crew chief inspects damage inflicted by an ME-262 jet fighter."


If your were not so dumb and so full of yourself, you would see that it was not a troll but pointing out that the British test were not indicative of 30mm damage in all cases.:eek:

What is the explosive content of an 88mm compared to a 30mm? Yet the 88 has not quite the same damage effect as the 30mm on the Blenhiem.

Pg 116 of the Mighty Eighth by Freeman has a pic of a flak hit that opened up the radio room from wing root to above the window. It made it back.:)

Pg 180 has a B-17 pic with a nose hit that made it back to base. Only the bombardier was killed in the explosion that destroyed the nose from the top of the turret back to the windscreen.

Pg 80 of Osprey Combat A/C #9(Mosquito FB Units) has a pic of a Mossie that tangled with a Me110(2 MK108s) that survived with a shredded rudder and a piece of it's fuselage outer skin missing.
 

So Barbi, as much as you would like your uber German weaponry to be 1 shot, one kill, it is not in fact so.:)

Offline butch2k

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #102 on: March 26, 2004, 01:48:07 PM »
Maybe you should read this :
"Die Grenzauftreffgeschwindigkeit, für did der zünder für MK108 noch anspricht, ist noch unsicher.
Genaue untersuchungen insbesondere auch kleinen auftreffwinkeln und massnahmen zur verbesserung, erscheinen erforderlich. Die grenzauftreffgeschwindigkeit liegt für senkrechten auftreffwinkel bei 200 bis 250m/s.
Für 200 und 250m/s mindestansprechgeschwindigkei t werden die kampfentfernungen je nach kampfhöhe und gegnergeschwindigkeit für z.Zt. an der front befindliche A-Geschoss und für das B-Geschoss wie folgt eingeschränkt"

From a late war MK108 test report.

I think it will explain a lot of things... ;)

Offline straffo

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2004, 01:55:04 PM »
Tu est dur avec moi mon allemand est plus que limité
(j'ai encore la marque du radiateur sur la joue 10 ans aprés ;))

En bref quand la vitesse d'impact est de l'ordre de 250m/s et en deça il y a des pb de détonnateur ?

Ou j'ai encore rien compris ?.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #104 on: March 26, 2004, 03:03:49 PM »
Hi Straffo,

>En bref quand la vitesse d'impact est de l'ordre de 250m/s et en deça il y a des pb de détonnateur ?

"The lower limit of the impact velocity for which the fuse of the MK108 still reacts hasn't been determined reliably yet.

Accurate tests especially for small impact angles and with regard to measures for improvement appear necessary.

The lower limit of the impact velocity for perpendicular impact angles is in the region of 200 to 250 m/s.

For 200 to 250 m/s minimum fusing velocity, the combat ranges are limited depending on combat altitude and enemy air speed for the A and B shells currently in use at the front as follows."

There should be some kind of table here telling us the effective ranges for the mine shells. Maybe Butch can provide them?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)