109 vs. Spit/Sherman vs. Tiger

[-tronski-]

There was an excellent show on discovery channel tonight called Greatest Military Clashes where they compared the Tiger and the Sherman. And then the Spitfire and 109 during the BOB.

Some of the really interesting stuff (imo) was when they went to bovington and took a tiger, and a sherman and ran them along side each other...showing not only their manoverability, but also the differing turret speeds etc. They discussed the firefly etc, and then went to a testing range and took a plate of sherman armour, and simulated an 88 hit. At the end they took both tanks and simulated a typical engagement using 4 shermans vs. the lone tiger.

The spit/109 was interesting when they took 2 vets and sat them in opposition a/c. Interestingly enough they both complained how the other aircraft would be extremly difficult to bail out of. They then also went to a testing range, and used aluminium targets the same thickness as spitfire/109 wings and used a browning .303 machinegun, and german 20mm cannon to show the firepower differences. The show concluded that both a/c were virtually equal, and that the real difference were pilots on the day. Although both suffered fundamental flaws, the 109's range - and surprisingly enough, the spitfires fuel tank position.

 Tronsky

[VO101_Isegrim]

Will they repeat this programme? I definietely have to see this!

[MiloMorai]

If this is the show I think it is, was shown a few months ago, the 109 pilot liked the Spitfire's cockpit and the Spitfire pilot did not like the 109's cockpit > more room and better vision in the Spitfire.

[Replicant]

I saw one programme comparing the Spitfire against the 109, but it was purely BoB era, i.e. Spit Mk.I vs 109E3/4.  The Spitfire was critisized for it's MG armament and engine/carb inability to dive pulling neg G.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
If this is the show I think it is, was shown a few months ago, the 109 pilot liked the Spitfire's cockpit and the Spitfire pilot did not like the 109's cockpit > more room and better vision in the Spitfire.

Yup thats it...I only had a passing interest in the show till the tiger came lumbering into view....

 Tronsky

[Raptor]

only thing I did not like about that show is in the spit/109 engagement they showed a 2 on 2 fight. The 109's got 1 of the spits then began to rtb, leaving the other spit to kill lead 109. I think they simulated this just to show that they thought they were equal.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Raptor01
only thing I did not like about that show is in the spit/109 engagement they showed a 2 on 2 fight. The 109's got 1 of the spits then began to rtb, leaving the other spit to kill lead 109. I think they simulated this just to show that they thought they were equal.

Same, I thought the sherman engagement was interesting....but agree the 109/spit engagement was very subjective and the outcome very contrived...

 Tronsky

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
If this is the show I think it is, was shown a few months ago, the 109 pilot liked the Spitfire's cockpit and the Spitfire pilot did not like the 109's cockpit > more room and better vision in the Spitfire.

Stiegler sit in the Spitfire cocpit and didnt find it any roomier. Hardly could he, it wasnt any bigger, in fact it seems to be a lot smaller below neck... lot less legspace for example, all seems very cramped. And of course the British were coping solutions from 109 cocpit, and not vica-versa..  There was more headroom in the Spit after the malcom hood was introduced though.

As for better visibility, it was already shown a while ago the relative nose-over and wing over sighting view - the 109 is very much better. Rear view was also a lot better from mid1943 onwards, when the Galland Panzer was introduced. Taxing view was terrible on all taildragger a/c, Spitfire or 109 alike, only nosewheel types had good forward visibility.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Stiegler sit in the Spitfire cocpit and didnt find it any roomier. Hardly could he, it wasnt any bigger, in fact it seems to be a lot smaller below neck... lot less legspace for example, all seems very cramped. And of course the British were coping solutions from 109 cocpit, and not vica-versa..  There was more headroom in the Spit after the malcom hood was introduced though.

As for better visibility, it was already shown a while ago the relative nose-over and wing over sighting view - the 109 is very much better. Rear view was also a lot better from mid1943 onwards, when the Galland Panzer was introduced. Taxing view was terrible on all taildragger a/c, Spitfire or 109 alike, only nosewheel types had good forward visibility.

Barbi, that is what the the 2 pilots said. If you don't like it, too bad.:D:D  These 80 year or so old gentleman had no reason not to be truthful. Stiegler was not the LW pilot in the show but the pilot was a LW ace, iirc. All your extra gum flappin is for naught.

Bad visiblility over the nose is taken for granted in a tail-dragger, so why mention it?

Now what is this word "coping"?

[GScholz]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
This person is on your Ignore List.

I love this function, perhaps you should try it Isegrim?


However, you must admit that the view from the Emil was worse than from the Spit I. Later 109s are arguable.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by GScholz
I love this function, perhaps you should try it Isegrim?

Another useless post by Col. Klink's lap dog.:aok

[Raptor]

This show was comparing spitmk1 and 109e4. they did discuss how later 109 models had a clear bullet proof thing added behind the pilots head instead of the metal,which improved visibility.