So are these "hostages" or "Prisoners of War"??

[NUKE]

Originally posted by crabofix


How to form a opposition against something like an unleagal invasion? A whole country being raped and nobody doing nothing?
Desperate men seek desperate sollutions.

Kind of like Sweden did nothing when Europe was being raped by Germany?

[crabofix]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok thats more reasonable allready, you wanna really discuss?

We both know that we could never agree on anything when it comes to theese issues, Grun, so why discuss it?

I am telling you what I think, I am not trying to change your world.
You are entiteled to agree or disagree, I will not get angry

[crabofix]

Originally posted by NUKE
Kind of like Sweden did nothing when Europe was being raped by Germany?

Look who is throwing stones in the glasshouse.
 Yes, sure, Sweden was very able to fight the Germans. Especially as the Russians kinda was lurking from the east. While the great country in the West cheered.

[GRUNHERZ]

Well I dont think the US is or was raping Iraq. The US does not do that  stuff.

These insurgents are not resaponding to any sort of US injustice.

Quite simply I feel they, the ex-Baathists and the al-Sadr army are trying to assure their own political power in the post US government period. They are trying to do that by military means becausae they know that there is 0% chance of them gaining power in any free electionn.

The bathists wont win because they are linked to saddam and are Sunnis.

The Sadr army folks, while shiites, wont win because Muqtada Al-sadr is not even a slightly legitimate leader to the vast majority of Shiites.

So thats why they have been acting up, trying to impose their own power.


Now, here's the big leap I ask of you. Consider this, are you supporting these insurgents because you belive that they have the best intrests of the Iraqi people at heart as opposed to the coalition powers?

Take a look at this info:

http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1463441

This post war written by dead man flying in another similar thread, it deal with some of the same issues. And dmf is far from a pro bush right winger...

'The groups who fight against America hinder progress toward democracy because they stand to lose the most under a democratic system. As minorities, the Sunnis by definition face a future guaranteeing their political marginalization. As such, they fight to preserve their power base and undermine any move toward representative government.

Al-Sadr likewise faces political obscurity if things progress as planned; he represents a small fraction of Shiites in Iraq. In an NPR piece on him about four months back, they noted that he used thugs to intimidate and chase off civilian contractors who attempted to renovate or otherwise improve the slums where most of his followers lived. When the slum dwellers wondered why they did not see any of the lifestyle improvements promised to them by the Americans, Al-Sadr called Americans liars and thieves and fanned the flames of anti-Americanism when he himself was to blame for their persistent lack of improvement.
(I believe this links to the story)

These are not freedom fighters, at least not in any modern sense of the word. They fight for political power in a land where Hussein's defeat left a massive power vacuum. Don't pretend that they represent the Iraqi people generally or that they hold their best interests at heart. They don't seek to overthrow oppressors so much as they seek, themselves, to oppress. Do you honestly believe that whatever "freedom" they offer to the Iraqi people represents what most Iraqis desire?"

-- Todd/Leviathn

So if you really care about Iraqi wellbeing, what do you think of the insurgents motives with this new info now?  Perhaps you wont agree with me, but what about him?

[NUKE]

Originally posted by crabofix
Look who is throwing stones in the glasshouse.
 Yes, sure, Sweden was very able to fight the Germans. Especially as the Russians kinda was lurking from the east. While the great country in the West cheered.

better to sit in judment, hands to your crotch, and whining like a girl.

[GRUNHERZ]

So hes saying that sweden didnt fight the germans because the russians would then invade?

LOL

[crabofix]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

Now, here's the big leap I ask of you. Consider this, are you supporting these insurgents because you belive that they have the best intrests of the Iraqi people at heart as opposed to the coalition powers?

I support theese guys, because they are fighting an unlegal occupying force. The Cause is lost and the US will leave with their tails between their legs, creating a far more horrible place then the originaly invaded: An Islamic republic.
I do not concider this good. I do not consider the regime of Saddam good. But the invasion of Iraq was not a very good move at the point it was commited.
Mr Bush was and is still way out of line.

[crabofix]

Originally posted by NUKE
better to sit in judment, hands to your crotch, and whining like a girl.

Yes, at that very specific moment, that was the only thing possible.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by crabofix
I support theese guys, because they are fighting an unlegal occupying force. The Cause is lost and the US will leave with their tails between their legs, creating a far more horrible place then the originaly invaded: An Islamic republic.
I do not concider this good. I do not consider the regime of Saddam good. But the invasion of Iraq was not a very good move at the point it was commited.
Mr Bush was and is still way out of line.

So your hatred of the USA and bush  exceeds your care for the outcome to the Iraqi people?

[crabofix]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So your hatred of the USA and bush  exceeds your care for the outcome to the Iraqi people?

The outcome is obviuse. A failure from start. You can name it Vietnam, Somalia or Iraq. It is just a matter of time.
As it started out wrong it will end wrong.

[GRUNHERZ]

You want it to fail. You need it to fail, beacuse it will make you feel better about your prejudices against America.

And you dont give one damn about the Iraqi people, you just want the terrorists and lunatics to take over because it will reinforce your hatred of America..

So I wanna tell you something...

You use the worrd "unjust" to describe this inavsion. Well, you should stop using it because you dony have one ounce of sensse of justice in you. You are obviously so full opf hatred aginst the USA that you want the worst possible posiibnle outcome for 23 million people jsut because it would justify your prejudices. Thts the only justice you know...

[NUKE]

Originally posted by crabofix
The outcome is obviuse. A failure from start. You can name it Vietnam, Somalia or Iraq. It is just a matter of time.
As it started out wrong it will end wrong.

Did Vietnam and Somalia end wrong in your opinion? Im interested to know, because the US tried to stop communism in Vietnam ( or maybe we wanted the oil)

[crabofix]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

You use the worrd "unjust" to describe this inavsion. Well, you should stop using it because you dony have one ounce of sensse of justice in you. You are obviously so full opf hatred aginst the USA that you want the worst possible posiibnle outcome for 23 million people jsut because it would justify your prejudices. Thts the only justice you know...

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want
to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his
farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia,
nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple
matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
 or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always
 be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell
them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and
 exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

- Hermann Goering, April 18, 1946, while awaiting the Nuremberg trials.

You are wrong, Grun. I do not hate USA or the people of USA.
What I hate is the ignorance of that country.
How they send out their poor members of society to die for something as useless as money.

Grun, In about 60 years, weŽll all be dead and forgotten. I will be as poor as I was when I was born, so will probebly you be.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by crabofix
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want
to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his
farm in one piece?  

you are such an idiot. A lot of "poor slobs" on a farm willingly went to war for our country in defense of freedom and humanity....something a complete moron like yourself will never understand.

[GRUNHERZ]

But in the meantime you wanna ensure that the Iraqi people get the worst possible outcome..

Maybe you dont hate the usa, maybe...  But why then do you hate the Iraqi's so much?