Author Topic: Israeli Fighter information  (Read 1556 times)

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« on: May 02, 2004, 03:18:32 AM »
It looks as if you guys need to relook what actually flew in this war. Only one Mossi, two P-51s and (no Spit XVI untill 1951) for the first few months or so.

http://www.geocities.com/zkrisher/erlyears.htm


I'm still reading!
Tempest
Seafury
Only three B-17s
So what years are we representing here?

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/postw2mj.htm

http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/00bios/lenart00.htm

http://www.wings48.com/aircraft.shtml

Can you name thses pilots?


« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 04:08:44 AM by CurtissP-6EHawk »

Offline artik

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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2004, 09:31:30 AM »
Actually the main fighters of  early IAF were Avia S-199 (109g14 with another engine), and Spitfire Mk IX - and they are in the game.

Couple of Mustangs take a part in Idenpendece War (as you know they are limited in setup). Most of the purcashed later and had lot of action in later Israel-Arabic but they did saw action in Idependece War of 1948-1950

In IAF were only 3 B-17s and as you know they are limited in the game. However there were lots of raids including raid on Cairo of IAF  Flying Fortresses.

Mosquito purchashed mostly at the end of the Indpendece War - most of them had seen action later - and for game reasons they included.

REAF had mostly Spit V and Spit IX (but this wasn't given for skin reasons in AH), aslo later in the war they used C205.

Spitfire Mk XIV is RAF (British) fighters that were based in Egypt and there were many accidents between IAF and RAF.

So.......
The setup suits both historical and game purposes.
You can tell tha at the begginig IAF had only S-199 but..... that  was only at beggining.

Actually it would be better to wright 1948-1950

Also look some history there
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« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 09:35:45 AM by artik »
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2004, 09:45:10 AM »
Nuthin's perfect in any setup, Hawk. You know that. Even when we slot something in a traditional WWII setting, there's gonna be some fudging involved. That's what makes the "anti-alternate reality" argument pretty well moot. The virtual reality of Ace's High Combat Theater IS alternate reality! Always will be. Even if you COULD limit it to "x number of the exact types of planes involved in the specific window of the battle from specific bases they flew from flown by the specific pilots that flew them to hopefully reproduce the exact same results that happened in the history book" ..... it wouldn't happen - most likely. :D

Offline wombat

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2004, 12:06:59 PM »
Thanks for the info Hawk!

Offline Grits

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2004, 12:28:37 PM »
I think the one on the far left is Chris Magee, dont know about the others.

Offline AcePappy

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Good point Hawk
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2004, 01:33:45 PM »
Yeah umm..... I have read history about this conflict that took place. I have to say, the plane set in AH is messed up in fact, the IAF did have P-40's as i read, and they had only 1 model of a spitfire. In AH why isnt there any P-40 huh? that's odd. But they mysteriously add the Spit VIX (ABCDEFGHI) whatever that damn thing is, to the Egyptian side. Hmm... artik read more buddy. I'm not saying your setup is crap or nothing, just saying this planeset isnt all correct.

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2004, 01:44:24 PM »
I have read and been told via emails by other Israeli historians that the Spit IVX never saw action but there is at least one in 1951.

As far as AH,
There shouldnt be any Spit IVX nor Mossies. The A20 shouldnt be subed for the Bolo (C-47 Bomber).and are being abused with thier nose cannons as attack fighters..and if we are looking at the whole shabng then lets sub the 262 for the Meteor. As Artic said, the base capture should be extreamly limited. I could go on and on but it wouldn't do any good. My main reason for the post was for the information. I think it is rather interesting. It is almost a war that no one remembers or even knows about. I knew about it but never really got into the detailed history of it.

All in all the SpitIVX should not be there.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 04:11:37 PM by CurtissP-6EHawk »

Offline artik

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2004, 02:08:20 PM »
Short IAF History:

First fighter aircraft in IAF were Avia S-199 Purchashed from Checoslovakia  in 1948 - actually these were 109g14 with less powerfull engine.

Then Spitfires Mk IX were purchashed from Checolsovakia.

Actually in 1948-50 S-199 and Spitfire Mk IX were main IAF fighters.

No P-40 were in IAF.

The number of Mustangs in 1048-50 was very low - however they did see action.

There were only 3 B-17 in IAF from 1948 up to 56 when they finished the servise.

Mossquito were late planes - but they were added for game purposes.

Royal Egyptian Air Force at the beginning had only Spitfire Mk V and IX. Later C205 were purchashed.

A-20 is subsituation for C-47 Dakota Bombers. (REAF need bombers)

SBD is subsituation for Harvard Mk II (actually they look very similar and have close bombload)

No all sources in interned give good information

Royal Air Force

Britan had couple of RAF bases in Egypt.

They had mostly Spitfire Mk XVIII and Tempests but there is it XIV.

Couple of them were shot down by IAF fighers

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« Last Edit: May 02, 2004, 02:11:44 PM by artik »
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2004, 02:13:03 PM »
Mossies were mainly used for recon-AH they are used for attacking.

A-20 is a piss-poor sub for the C-47 bomber-AH it is used as a high speed attack/fighter.

SpitIVX has no buisness in there.
SpitIX on both sides or SpitVs on both sides.

This is a very poor map and plane set, just my two cents.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2004, 03:24:15 PM »
More like 20 bucks ... we see you campaigning against it valiantly.

A20s aren't all that hard a target. Try it.

No the game doesn't allow for multiple skins on the same craft.

Brits did have MkXVIIIs and Temps. Would you rather face the Temps? (eg)

Panzers weren't there either. Guess that means nixing the tanks in this set due to realism. Oops ... nix it for the Allies in every set down the road. ;)

A little over five days to go. Keep swinging. :D

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2004, 03:45:37 PM »
Well it appears that the RAF wernt actually fighting and the loss of thier spits and Tempest was a flook!

So far, I dont see where REAF used the SpitIVX or what constitutes its availability in here.

The A20 purpose is being abused and it should not be here.

This was mainly a ground war and only a hand full of airplanes were even there.

In reality (ironic) this should be a spitIX or SpitV, C-205  vs S-199 ?, or simply a spit vs spit furball map!

Lets go back to WWII

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2004, 05:12:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk

In reality (ironic) this should be a spitIX or SpitV, C-205  vs S-199 ?, or simply a spit vs spit furball map!

Lets go back to WWII


Actually it appears that Artik put alot of work and research into it and this planeset isn't all that bad. The Spit IX vs Spit XIV pretty much ends up being who's the better pilot from what I've experienced so far. The SpitV performs like the "Tasmanian Devil"  much like it always has (except if it's caught low by multiples it, like most planes/pilots, has a hard time of it). The 205 can handle itself ok (again depending on the pilots involved). The C47 doesn't have a bomb loadout in this game. Artik opted for the A20 instead of the TBM. His call. I don't see a problem with it other than your concern that it can put a whoop on bases with it's nose guns (but not if the base is actually being defended seriously - same goes for the Mossie on the other side).

I see concessions made to make it more appealing all around.

I also see some players that don't like it simply because it isn't a proper WWII set. You being one of them seems kinda funny. Didn't you just flat go wild with giddiness during the "Second Wind" setup in the Komet (even though, technically, we can call the "Second Wind" setup a WWII one)?

Five and a half days to go. Hell, `ol son .... I ain't seen a Corsair over a Pacific terrain in ages. I think I'll live ... and make the best out of whatever comes down the pike until it's my turn (and other players are STILL pizzing and moaning when THAT happens too). :D

Offline ergRTC

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Israeli Fighter information
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2004, 05:27:25 PM »
not to get political, but why on earth is this called the Independence war?


just curious.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2004, 05:37:36 PM »
I'm sure Artik can correct me but my guess is it would have something to do with Israel's declaration of Independent State status in 1948. Prior to that I believe they were more or less a protectorate of Great Britain.

Went ahead and did a quick "search engine thang":

When Israel achieved its independence on May 14, 1948, the Haganah became the de facto Israeli army. On that day, the country was invaded by the regular forces of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria. Eleven days later, Israel's provisional government issued an order that provided the legal framework for the country's armed forces. The order established the official name Zvah Haganah Le Yisrael and outlawed the existence of any other military force within Israel.

The dissident Irgun and Stern Gang were reluctant to disband. Fighting between Irgun and regular military forces broke out on June 21 when the supply ship Altalena arrived at Tel Aviv with 900 men and a load of arms and ammunition for the Irgun. The army sank the ship, destroying the arms, and many members of the Irgun were arrested; both organizations disbanded shortly thereafter. A more delicate problem was how to disband the Palmach, which had become an elite military unit within the Haganah and had strong political ties to the socialist-oriented kibbutzim. Nonetheless, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister and minister of defense, was determined to see the IDF develop into a single, professional, and nonpolitical national armed force. It was only through his skill and determination that the Palmach was peacefully abolished and integrated into the IDF in January 1949.

The ranks of the IDF swelled rapidly to about 100,000 at the height of the War of Independence. Nearly all able-bodied men, plus many women, were recruited; thousands of foreign volunteers, mostly veterans of World War II, also came to the aid of Israel. The newly independent state rapidly mobilized to meet the Arab invaders; by July 1948, the Israelis had set up an air force, a navy, and a tank battalion. Weapons and ammunition were procured abroad, primarily from Czechoslovakia. Three B-17 bombers were bought in the United States through black market channels, and shortly after one of them bombed Cairo in July 1948, the Israelis were able to establish air supremacy. Subsequent victories came in rapid succession on all three fronts. The Arab states negotiated separate armistice agreements. Egypt was the first to sign (February 1949), followed by Lebanon (March), Transjordan (April), and finally Syria (July). Iraq simply withdrew its forces without signing an agreement. As a result of the war, Israel considerably expanded its territory beyond the United Nations (UN) partition plan for Palestine at the expense of its Arab neighbors. Victory cost more than 6,000 Israeli lives, however, which represented approximately 1 percent of the population. After the armistice, wartime recruits were rapidly demobilized, and the hastily raised IDF, still lacking a permanent institutional basis, experienced mass resignations from its war-weary officer corps. This process underscored the basic manpower problem of a small population faced with the need to mobilize a sizable army during a wartime emergency. In 1949, after study of the Swiss reservist system, Israel introduced a three-tiered system based on a small standing officer corps, universal conscription, and a large pool of well-trained reservists that could be rapidly mobilized.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr45/fisrael1948.htm

Offline AcePappy

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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2004, 09:59:35 PM »
artik you arre parcially wrong on one thing and i know it for sure, there were in fact a few rare P-40's within the IAF. I know there were, whether they were bought, captured, etc... i could careless how the hell israel got it, but they did. I have seen pics on he internet of P-40's with IAF markings.