Author Topic: 'Contractors 101'  (Read 961 times)

Offline wulfie-away

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« on: May 06, 2004, 10:08:39 PM »
Here's a little 'FYI'. For what it's worth, this is no attempt to minimize the dumb-assed conduct of a few of the guys working at a certain prison in Iraq. When the investigation(s) are over, if things look as bad as they do right now...they should be punished to the fullest extent of any and all applicable laws.

===

1. Some have made comments to the effect that contractors working in Iraq are 'rogue elements' - that there is no authority to hold them to a code of conduct, etc. There is then the mandatory follow-up statement that alludes to the U.S. Government 'wanting it this way, so innocents can be tortured and killed without repurcussion'.

All contractors working in Iraq are under the authority of either the DoD, the Provisional Govt., or both. As far as conduct goes, they are generally held to a higher standard than military/DoD personnel - by both the contracting agency and the relevant authority. ROE (Rules of Engagement) for armed combatant type contractors in Iraq are far more strict than for Coalition military personnel. I'll give you guys a couple of examples:

If you are hired by a company that has a contract with the DoD, you go thru the same indoc that DoD personnel do before they go to Iraq. The same ROE, threat lectures, etc. You are there as a contractor by the grace of the DoD and/or the Provisional Govt. When contractors do stupid things, they get sent home at the least, or investigated for possible criminal charges, etc. I have one close friend working convoy security in Iraq. One of the guys in his detail 'suffered' an AD (accidental discharge - a cardinal sin if you pack a rifle for a living). He put a round from a SAW thru the floor of his SUV. He was gone the next day.

Drunk on duty - gone and blacklisted with every other contractor out there.

Drunk at a forward location even if not on duty - gone and blacklisted.

Etc.

Both the DoD/PGovt. and the contracting companies want it this way. The contracting companies get the 'hot gigs' from the DoD/PGovt. based on the reputation of their operators. Crazy/stupid/dumb-assed contractors piss off the local DoD/PGovt. authorities. There is no 'shadowy group of contractor-assassins hired by the CIA to torture and kill Iraqis without the U.S. Government having to answer for it'. Iraq is swarming with journalists - the majority being slightly biased vs. the U.S. at best - if there were such a story - with a shred of proof to back it up - do you think it would not be on page one of even the toliet paper at U.C. Berkely? :)

Most armed and/or intelligence contract positions require a current security clearance - that is issued by one of several U.S. Govt. agencies. There is plenty of Govt. oversight when it comes to contractors.

2. There are no 'offensive' contract positions in Iraq. None. I have 20+ good Friends working contracts right now, no small # of them coming off of some significant time in the special operations community. Former special operations types are coveted as convoy and site security because you can operate them in groups of 4, 5, or 6 and they can still take care of themselves. They are also being hired as instructors, etc. None are being used for recon, direct action, or offensive military operations of any kind - not in Iraq - they are elsewhere though (more on that later). If it's offensive action, it's Coalition military forces doing the work. Comments like 'because you can lose 100 contractors in an attack and the government won't take heat for losing troops' are assnine to say the least. Think about the guys taking these jobs for a second. Generally highly trained with a nose for danger. Who is going to sign up as a rogue suicide shooter when making $180,000+/year tax free providing convoy security is available? Use some common sense.

3. Why contractors? I hear some people say that you could get more force for less money by increasing military manning. Dead wrong.

The 'war on terror' is intelligence agent/intelligence analyst/special operations operator intensive. There are a huge pool of these types of people who are retired or no longer part of the government or part of the military. A lot of them spent 10 or 15 years where 'action' - a chance to actually do something meaningful - was not really there. Between Viet Nam and 9/11/01 there were not 'weekly' or even 'monthly' missions were actual bad guy terrorist types were the target of a direct action mission. There are a lot of intelligence types who spent 20 years listening to Soviet Embassy staffers. Listening in hopes of thwarting a terrorist attack (against anyone's women and children) has a much quicker payoff and feels much more rewarding.

So the collective side of the 'good guys' in the 'war on terror' (read: 90% of the Nations in the world) is now ~ 45% manned on the special operations and intelligence fronts (that's a purely hypothetical guess :)). Do you increase the # of Green Berets or SEALs or STS by 100%? Not in a year if you don't want to lower the training standards. Not in 5 years. And in general a field intelligence or special operations operator isn't really 'ready to go' until he's had at least 3 years worth of training, an initial deployment, etc.

And even if you expand the numbers - increase the # of Special Forces Groups, increase the staffing in the DO at CIA - then you have a lot of 'add on expenses'. Insurance. Dependant care. Housing. Etc., etc., etc. Not to mention that you can't just 'fire them' if you all of a sudden do not need them anymore. They are govt. employees.

Here you have this huge pool of 'retired' Western (and now Eastern) Special Operations and Intelligence types. A lot of them want 'in on the action' (not talking about money - contrary to some assnine statements in the media) - if you do either for a living you do it because you believe in the job/mission/etc. and/or you are an action junkie. Why wouldn't a smart Govt. find a 'short cut' to get these guys back in action?

4. Which leads to the next point - mercenaries. Bull**** statement. These guys are hired by contracting companies that do all their work for the U.S., or the U.K., or France, etc. A mercenary fights for money alone - he hasn't historically cared who he fought for as long as the pay was good and the mission wasn't suicide. Any former military or intelligence guy working as a contractor is work for the Government of the U.S., or the U.K., etc. The mission is defined by the Govt. The Govt. goes to a trusted company to find the people for the mission. The term 'mercenary' is an insult and it implies that these guys would do whatever they were told to do for the money. This is totally inaccurate. There is no comparison between Hoare's 'commando mercenaries' (operating without U.K. sanction - but don't get me wrong I believe they thought the cause they were fighting for was just, in a 'good vs. evil' sense) and the U.S., U.K., German, French, etc. former military and intelligence types who are now working as 'contractors'.

===

Short version of 'interrogation 101' or 'the intel guys told us to strip them naked'.

Bull**** (again).

No point, no possible gain, and guranteed damage of efforts from an interrogation standpoint when you're talking about what was done to the Iraqi prisoners. I hate to ruin any future spy novels, but the only way to develop actionable intelligence from long term interrogation is the old fashioned way - cut their nuts off in front of their buddies-er-I meant:

Make them repeat the story. Ask for specific details. Do this over and over again, preferrably when the subject is fatigued (yes sleep deprivation and sleep pattern disruption happens - it's 'brain chemistry to aid interrogation 101' and any police detective will use it if he gets the chance - thus the 8-12 hour interrogation sessions at the precinct). Tell me the story of what your unit did just before the end of the war Habib. Tell me again. Start in the middle and tell it backwards. Are you sure his name was Haji? You said it was Haju 4 repetitions ago. We caught Haji last night and he says you never destroyed your SA-7 launchers before you disbanded. Etc., etc., etc.

A high % of the interrogators in Cuba are contactors. Same goes for Iraq. Arab-speaking experienced interrogators are in short supply. You can bet that they are going to get every retired intel/interrogator type signed up for a job if he's available. The guys in Iraq are running Iraqis as agents. You don't get people to act as agents for you if you condone stripping them naked, beating them, etc. Here's an excerpt from an email a Good Friend of mine sent me - he's currently an intelligence officer (contractor, former MI) working at the very prison that the misconduct took place at - I hope you'll pardon the fact that it lacks the common 'I know the U.S.A. is the Greatest And We Kiss Babies While we Slay Evil with our M4s' theme that a lot of those bull**** 'Email from a Marine in Iraq' stories have:

(post cont. in reply below)

Offline wulfie-away

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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2004, 10:10:09 PM »
(cont.)



"Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:18:19 -0500

I will respond to everyone, as I assume we are all taking a bite out of this **** sandwich.

If you're counting, the toll is 21 dead and 92 wounded. No friendlies, thank God. This time they dropped all 120's.  As ******* stated before, indiscriminate tools of death.  I lost a source who had produced a lot of intel for us. He was to be transferred to a different part of the prison today.

On CNN, only the deaths of prisoners make the news. We lost a few marines to these attacks a few weeks ago. They come pretty regularly...that and the riots. The MP's did a shakedown last week and pulled 3 shopping carts full of improvised weapons from the camps. Shanks, knives, ****-flingers (I'm
not kidding), and bed sheet rope.

The Pooper is great. Not to be outdone by the Pisser, the pooper ****s in his cell and arranges his ammo as though preparing to sack Thebes. I don't talk to the Pooper, and I have not fallen victim to his cries for help. Like a Siren, he seduces the inquisitive MP's or passer-by. You know what happens next.

If anyone is passing by Abu Ghraib and needs a place to crash, or maybe just a beer, find me at the JIDC. Also, if any of you guys have an extra AK or 9 mil I would appreciate it.

(name removed)"

Here's one from a buddy working convoy security (just to provide some interesting reading...he's a former special operations man - the anger expressed in the email is for the purposes of humor):

"Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:09:56 -0700

****ing salamanders just shot at ME. Not my convoy (on at least one occasion we took SAF, but at 120K per hour life goes on), not at my base (SAF is often heard in the distance), but this time out it was directed at ME. Responded to gunfire in the farthest sector of base - two vehicle response - initiated L-shaped patrol along perimiter fence line. In the dead of night (2am), driving tactical (NVG), three round burst came my way - 20 meters
across my front. ****ING salamanderS. Caught alone and fearful of getting pinned down I punched out of dodge. Burms, and small dwellings made pinpointing their location impossible. No accident they were out of range of the MK-19.

Adrenelin is pumping. I could use a double Starbucks mocha - no whip."

You'll note in the first email my Buddy talks of a 'good source who provided lots of intel and was about to be moved'. I'll be honest - if he emailed me about making fake-porn movies with naked Iraqi prisoners to degrade them 'so as to better interrogate them' I wouldn't mention it to anyone. But I would save such an email for blackmail purposes. So if any of you ever see me with a garage full of new 911s, well, you'll know I didn't tell you something (the guy who wrote that email took a huge pay cut - quit his real life big money job to get 'back in the big game', thus the blackmail joke).

The general perception held by certain extreme groups and/or groups with an agenda about 'contractors' is way, way off. I hear about the various contracts, in different parts of the world, all the time. I've been recruited 'in advance' by a couple of contracting agencies 'when I come off of active duty' (not going to happen anytime soon however - too bad - the money is great and it's like working at a reunion). I have many (30+) Good, Close Friends working as contractors at this very moment. You may disagree with me all the time. You may hate my guts. But trust me on this topic.

About 'offensive' contracts; usually they work like this. An intelligence agency needs a DA (Direct Action) capable team in a certain part of the world. They hire a former special operations type with a previous intelligence background, vet him as if he's an employee, but he's paid thru a contracting agency to avoid having to go thru the govt. (GS) retirement/benefits/firing proceedure hassle. In this case the term 'contractor' truly applies to where the paycheck comes from alone. These guys operate exactly as if they were field operators for the applicable intelligence agency. An example of this would be Dave Tapper - former USN SEAL, KIA in Afghanistan - listed in media reports as a 'contractor working for the CIA'. These types of contracts are fairly rare, very selective hiring, etc. They are almost always mission or theater specific and fairly temporary.

I've got about 3-4 days of 'free to screw off on the internet' time. If someone has a (sincere - GScholz - don't ask me if they pay a bonus for every toe collected past 20 - it's been 40 for at least a year :)) question about 'contractors' ask away. German, UK, US, French, Spanish, Russian - I know guys from several different Nations that are working as contractors in one place or another right now.

Mike/wulfie

p.s. When's AH2 going to be fully up-and-running? Haven't had the time or the opportunity to follow the beta.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2004, 10:18:55 PM »
" I hate to ruin any future spy novels, but the only way to develop actionable intelligence from long term interrogation is the old fashioned way - cut their nuts off in front of their buddies-er-I meant:"

funny, I was watching the history channel the other day, and that wasn't how they did it in ww2(the old days)

They actually treated them like human beings(unlike their own army) and got tons of information.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2004, 10:25:50 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline wulfie-away

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2004, 10:28:05 PM »
I thought of 1 more thing - he's a good 'average example' of how/why these contracts exist.

Case #1:

1. Provisional Government needs to provide convoy security for food convoys into an area.

2. Best convoy security is motorized infantry formations.
2A. Military units not really in the mood to give up a rifle platoon and 4-6 Hummers to protect food convoys when they already have 3-4 other missions in their current AO.

3. Provisional Government and/or DoD issues contract for convoy security detail.
3A. Some company snares the contract. Puts the word out throughout the retired operator community. People apply for the job and get hired.

The convoy security detail answers directly to the PGovt./DoD command in charge of the food convoys. I.e., if the convoy security guys shoot up some Iraqis and it is not a very clear case of self defense, the PGovt./DoD is going to burn them at the stake. Even if they were shooting in self defense - if it could be made to look like they were not they are going to be kicked off the contract to 'save face'. Because of this, contracting agencies tend to pound *very* strict ROE into the heads of their contractors.

Case #2:

Govt. X, a Friend but not a trusted Ally of the U.K., wants a new secure communications system - courtesy of the U.K. - including the training of it's own people by 'top flight' intelligence/comms specialists.

1. M.I. 5 and M.I. 6 both inform the Govt. of the U.K. about what they can do - exactly - with the request that some of their current operatives go to a potentially future hostile Nation and give them secure comms.

2. U.K. Govt. says 'Well, Damn'. But they don't want the Russians or the Chinese to take the job, win favor and influence in the region, etc.
2A. U.K. Govt. says they'll provide the secure comms. They recommend a highly regarded 'international' (i.e. they installed cellular phone networks in Costa Rica - but any sensitive work is done only at the request of and for the benefit of the U.K.) communications company, based in the U.K. or maybe Europe - for the job. The U.K. Govt. points out that this company has worked for the U.K. Govt. before.

Odds are the senior techs at this company spend their holidays with a lot of almost-retired M.I. 5 and M.I. 6 officers. Of course, if Govt. X every turns hostile to the U.K., Company Z will protest loudly when M.I. 5 raids their offices for the details of the secure comms system installed by Company Z. "Where'd they get the door keys from anyways?". :)

'Etc.'

Mike/wulfie

Offline wulfie-away

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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2004, 10:28:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
" I hate to ruin any future spy novels, but the only way to develop actionable intelligence from long term interrogation is the old fashioned way - cut their nuts off in front of their buddies-er-I meant:"

funny, I was watching the history channel the other day, and that wasn't how they did it in ww2(the old days)

They actually treated them like human beings(unlike their own army) and got tons of information.


I was joking with the first statement - that's why I had the 'er' put in there. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Mike/wulfie

Offline Nash

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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2004, 10:29:48 PM »
Why is it always that the people who know the most, know the least?

Offline Connection

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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2004, 10:30:15 PM »
Quote
mer·ce·nar·y    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (mūrs-nr)
adj.

   1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
   2. Hired for service in a foreign army.

Offline wulfie-away

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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2004, 10:38:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Why is it always that the people who know the most, know the least?


I am crushed. All of my good friends are really torturing and killing people for the CIA at night and I never had a clue until Nash pointed out the truth to me. :)

Mike/wulfie

Offline Nash

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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2004, 10:49:57 PM »
If you had a clue they wouldn't be very good agents of the cya eh!

There have been lotsa folks here with amazing inside info on whatever it is that's happening in Iraq. And lots more before the US of eh even got there.

I appreciate the details... makes for a fascinating read and there's alotta good info there. But damn... draw any conclusions based on the details and you're gonna be hooped.

Happened before (right?), happening now (right?), and my guess it's gonna happen again.

Offline wulfie-away

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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2004, 11:09:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
If you had a clue they wouldn't be very good agents of the cya eh!

There have been lotsa folks here with amazing inside info on whatever it is that's happening in Iraq. And lots more before the US of eh even got there.

I appreciate the details... makes for a fascinating read and there's alotta good info there. But damn... draw any conclusions based on the details and you're gonna be hooped.

Happened before (right?), happening now (right?), and my guess it's gonna happen again.


Okay not to play into your hands here, but I don't understand exactly what you are saying.

Take a town in Iraq. Town Y. There is a Coalition military unit and an Iraqi (provisional) military unit that has that area as a responsibility.

There are too many people responsible for too much to allow 'American contractors' to go around torturing and killing people on the orders of the CIA.

If such things were going on - 'by the book' an intelligence agency would be using a native to do such work. Or someone who looked like a native and had 'native ID' and a cover as a native citizen (very hard in the middle east - due to the tribal nature of things).

The short version - if some intelligence officer came into town Y and told the US Battalion CO in charge of that town 'You may hear some gunfire and screams tonight but don't respond with a patrol to this area' he's going to reply with 'piss off and get out of my office and if I call the Division CO in 1 hour and you aren't talking to him I'm going to have you arrested'.

The guards at the prison that were contractors were at best tier 3 contractors (1 - former special operations, former combat pilots, MDs, former field intel; 2 - former combat arms, former intel analysts, pilots; 3 - law enforcement, logistical support, etc.; 4 - locals screened for reliability who aid contractors with contacts, AK, etc.) and they were by all accounts retards. Knowing guys who are currently interrogating people, generating intelligence, etc. there is no way these retards were 'ordered by the intel contractors' to do what they did.

Some people need to hang - the retards know that some people are going to hang - and they are trying to dodge the results of their actions so as not to risk their prison guard pension back at home. That's my assessment based on guys I know in the business and seeing locations and operations like that with my own eyes.

If - when the investigation is completed - it turns out that some intelligence officer (contract or 'active duty') did actually order this bull**** to take place - then the case of beer is on me.

What I'm trying to say is that for the people these guards are claiming gave them the orders to humiliate the prisoners - for those people to give those orders makes zero sense. It actually would have made their job much more difficult. And in their case a bad month at the office means missing the car bomb attack that kills 10 Coalition soldiers, as opposed to a bad monthly review. It doesn't make any sense. Even for revenge - if revenge was a motive the alleged orders given don't make any sense either. If you were pissed off enough and out of control enough to order such a thing why would they stop at embarrassment?

A lot of things don't add up in terms of the 'blame game' as it is currently being reported.

Mike/wulfie

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2004, 11:22:22 PM »
"I'm going to have you arrested'. "

Ok, who is arresting who? I'm told they have no jurisdiction over the contractors.

But the way you are explaining it is that these ex-military people instead of considering it their duty to serve and signing back up, they hold out for contract jobs for the money. It would piss me off as a soldier if these ex-military guys come over making 5 digits a month and i'm the one doing all the "offensive" operations. I wouldn't bother to sign back up when my time is up, why should I when I can contract? Patriotism smatriotism. We spend money like we have an endless supply of it.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Nash

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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2004, 11:24:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wulfie-away
If - when the investigation is completed - it turns out that some intelligence officer (contract or 'active duty') did actually order this bull**** to take place - then the case of beer is on me


"Order" is a bit too narrow of a term here. "Stack 'em in a pyramid shape!" is not the type of thing I can see coming out of this.  

Two parties. Gov and contractors. If the contractors were acting completely alone and no regular army/intel is implicated then the case of beer is on me.

Quote
Originally posted by wulfie-away
A lot of things don't add up in terms of the 'blame game' as it is currently being reported.


Aye.

Offline wulfie-away

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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2004, 11:50:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
"I'm going to have you arrested'. "

Ok, who is arresting who? I'm told they have no jurisdiction over the contractors.


No - they have total jurisdiction over contractors. Say you were hired for convoy security tomorrow. You'd take your DD-214 and hiring paperwork and wind up in Texas for a couple of weeks. Interviews, medical, lectures, some field proficiency tests (marksmanship, combat shooting, etc.) - all given by the U.S. Army. Assuming everything checks out you're given the proper ID for being in Iraq - ID issued on the authority of the DoD and/or Provisional Iraqi Government (I don't know the and/or personally - I was military not a contractor so my ID situation was different). But the bottom line is you are subject to either of or both of those authorities while you are in Iraq. The company that hired you as a contractor was itself 'hired' by the DoD, Army Corps of Engineers, State Dept., Iraqi Government, Afghani Government, etc. You do not enter or leave without clearance from the people who are recognized to be in control of the area. For Iraq that's the Provisional Govt. and/or the DoD.


Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
But the way you are explaining it is that these ex-military people instead of considering it their duty to serve and signing back up, they hold out for contract jobs for the money. It would piss me off as a soldier if these ex-military guys come over making 5 digits a month and i'm the one doing all the "offensive" operations. I wouldn't bother to sign back up when my time is up, why should I when I can contract? Patriotism smatriotism. We spend money like we have an endless supply of it.


Not that simple. Most of the guys who are going the contract route have either been out for a couple of years already, or got out because they weren't going to be in an operational unit anytime soon (i.e. they were going to be stateside and/or deskbound).

One example - if you're a SEAL Officer, you are a '3d O' (3d officer in a platoon) when you are an ENS. You are AOIC of a platoon when you are a JG You are OIC of a platoon when you are a LT (assuming you show some proficiency, etc. - AOIC and OIC are in no way guranteed for all JGs and all LTs.

So if you are coming off your deployment as OIC, odds are you aren't going to be launching bullets for some time. Stupid, lame, but true. The same way that USN Fighter pilots are forced to take a non-flying billet going into year 6 or 8 or (?) (basically they have to do a non-flying sea tour to prep them for being a CAG in the future - at least that's how it was explained to me). So here they are - 32 or 33 maybe, and looking at a few years of sporadic flying at best - that's why so many go for flying commercial airliners.

So a guy who wants to launch bullets vs. the bad guys - or do something field related as opposed to desk related - if he's coming off his OIC platoon he has a better chance of action going to contractor route. At least he's 'in the mix'.

For what it's worth - in the past 4 years I have not seen a single guy that I know of (i.e. I keep track of how he's doing or we have a mutual buddy who keeps me filled in) in the special operations community (call it 100-120 guys) that hasn't reupped if his commitment was up and he was looking at deploying as a shooter. If there is an exception it's almost always a case of some guy going into his 10th year in the job and he got Married in 2002 and they had their first kid in 2003 and he's been home a couple of months' total since 2001. Then the guy will take a shore billet as an instructor/cadre, etc. But guys get into that kind of work to actually do the work - and the chance of getting to really take it to the bad guys is far greater when you are active duty military as opposed to being a contractor. The guys taking the contracts are often serious badasses (guys who saw a lot of combat in the 1980s or 1990s), then they got out of the business because the situation was changing in terms of seeing action for a good reason - and now there is a lot of action for a good reason. If you are convoy security you are playing tag with guys who are trying to stop food convoys. If you are site security you are trying to keep guys from blowing up powerplants. If you are EOD you are trying to get rid of all the leftover Iraqi artillery ammo so the bad guys can't use them for IEDs when ambushing convoys. These guys see action - but it is action of a defensive nature from their standpoint. Still - killing a terrorist trying to set up IEDs is still killing a terrorist. And being in the environment with a chance to do something 'serious' probably appeals to a lot of these guys who had been 'out of the loop' for a couple of years prior to 2001. It can sound bad if taken the wrong way, but in general if you like the job you like it better than anything else you can imagine - at least until you get really tired. :)

The bottom line is there is more special operations related work (especially in terms of training units of the new armies of Afghanistan and Iraq) than there are operators. The U.S. Army doesn't have the A-Dets to spare to send 10+ to help train the Iraqi army - not when there's enough 'offensive' work for those A-Dets and you have a bunch of retired veterans eager to 'get back in the game'. If there are 200 former Green Berets up for the job - get them a current clearance, run them thru a workup to shake the rust off and get them to work. Paying these guys $200,000 a year total for one year isn't that bad when you figure that getting them back into the Army would mean 6 years of pay (probably at least one promotion, and don't forget hazardous duty pay, jump pay, etc., and all of your guys are at least a Sgt. so you have housing allowance, etc.) plus expenses for dependants medical care, etc. It's also a lot easier to form up 20 former special forces guys to make a training detachment than it is to work up a special operations unit to the point that it is ready to deploy and undertake any one of several different missions. Using a deployed special operations unit for a training role would in some ways be a waste of an asset.

Mike/wulfie
« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 12:00:58 AM by wulfie-away »

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2004, 12:04:51 AM »
Sorry Wulfie, I got distracted. Could you start again? :)

Thanks for all the info. Of course this is not a reflection on what you've said, but things and most people usually make sense when the system works according to plan. When discipline fails (meaning leadership fails), then some heads have to roll. The culprits of all unreasonable acts are people who do things the majority of us think make no sense.

I think the extended blame game of blaming the press for reporting it and comparing it to unrelated actions of others is just as unreasonable.

I think the real issue for some is that these things happened last year, not last week. Accountability and tickets home were not instant.

Have you ever noticed that every time someone tries to keep a lid on anything until they have 'control' of the situation, it's usually the 'keeping a lid on it' part that jumps up to bite them in the butt?

Offline txmx

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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2004, 12:14:28 AM »
Very good read thx for the info.