Author Topic: 109 it fly wrong  (Read 15230 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2004, 05:08:08 AM »
I put a question out.

If there was no problem with the, so-called, light rudder of the 109, why was the Flettner tab introduced?

The Flettner tab was used to ease the force  applied to the rudder. Flettner tabs were even applied to the ailerons of 10% of the late model 109Ks. (as per Butch2k)

Offline Crumpp

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2004, 06:34:16 AM »
Let me follow your logic:

Carson's views are not valid HOWEVER Gallands "First and the Last" is a valid source???


HoHun, you completely blew your crediability with that logic.  I would say your are advancing an agenda.  

Crumpp

Offline GRUNHERZ

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2004, 08:50:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Let me follow your logic:

Carson's views are not valid HOWEVER Gallands "First and the Last" is a valid source???


HoHun, you completely blew your crediability with that logic.  I would say your are advancing an agenda.  

Crumpp


Do you understand the word "parity?"

Do you understand the word "superiority?"

And no Carson is not a valid expert source here.... HE NEVER FLEW A 109. NEVER!  His analysis is based on a bunch of second hand information and he has no clue about which model 109s hes talking about, freely lumping in all sorts of 109 types as if they were all the same.  He is not an expert on the 109.

But galland flew 109s for a nuber of years...

Crummp I ask what is your agneda when you try to say that carson is equally an expert on the 109 as was galland?

Offline Ecke-109-

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Why Carson was an Idiot
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2004, 09:23:01 AM »

Offline Grendel

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2004, 09:45:56 AM »
1)
Carson's article is fantasy, put together from various other sources, showing technical cluelessness and he never flew a 109.
Carson's article is not a source, it is a joke. Sorry.

2)
The only time any of the Me 109 war pilots I've personally spoken with commented anything negative about the lack of rudder trim was when they had to fly of the those "bad" airframes. Those that were badly built or damaged and didn't fly well, those planes might require constant pedal pressume to fly straight.

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2004, 12:53:12 PM »
Hi Crumpp,

>Let me follow your logic:

>Carson's views are not valid HOWEVER Gallands "First and the Last" is a valid source???

Carson's views display an inherent contradiction.

Galland's views don't display such a contradiction. However, they provide an answer to your question on why he'd have liked to have the Me 109 replaced.

(And even if Galland's views were self-contradicting, that would be more a problem of his credibility than of mine :-)

With regard to the contradiction in Carson's views, it's pretty obvious if you have some aerodynamics knowledge. I admit that it might not be as self-evident as I had hoped it would be, so if you're interested, I can try to give a more detailed explanation than provided above.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2004, 01:11:29 PM »
That Carson guy doesnt worths 1/10th the typing that was spent correcting his crap. This is so, just plain and simple.

Really the funniest part is when he rants about 'how to make a 400mph+ airplane', claims 'Willy' never did that, and then mentions the G-10 which even according to his date did quite a bit more than just 400mph... I guess Carson would be shocked to know the F-4 already achieved that, and incorporated many of the improvements he speaks of. But he doesn`t even know that...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2004, 01:14:27 PM by VO101_Isegrim »

Offline Kweassa

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2004, 03:49:38 PM »
Quote
With regard to the contradiction in Carson's views, it's pretty obvious if you have some aerodynamics knowledge. I admit that it might not be as self-evident as I had hoped it would be, so if you're interested, I can try to give a more detailed explanation than provided above.


 I know I would like to hear some of those explanations!

 I'm aeronautically impaired, and have always wondered just exactly what Carson was so wrong about.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2004, 04:21:36 PM »
The Bf109K4 is faster than a P51D Mustang....

The next model, the Bf109K-14 with a new 2spped 2 stage supercharged engine and four blade prop would likely be in the same speed class as the P51H... Plus remember it would have flettner tabs to help high speed roll rate. And it could mount new weapons like the Mk103M or a new 900rpm firing Mk108  (50%more firepower than our 30mm).  I'd say its was doing awesome for a 1934 design... :)

In other words Carson really did not know much about the Bf109 when he wrote that article. And you cant blame him, there was much misundertanding and little real research and knowledge about LW planes back in the 1970s.. But thats not an excuse now, and thus his article is not very valid.

Offline Angus

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2004, 04:20:42 AM »
Well, this was all about rudder trim in the beginning. Barbi wants a source, I'll give one, and it's not Carson.

"In October 1940 I flew a captured Me 109E; to my surprize and relief I found the aileron control of the German every bit as bad - if not worse - at high speeds as that of the Spitfire I and II with fabric-covered ailerons. They were good at low and medium speed, but at 400 mph and above they were almost immovable. I thought the Me 109E performed well, particularly on the climb at altitude, and it had good stalling characteristics under G except that the leading edge slats kept snapping in and out. But it had no rudder trimmer - which gave it a heavy footload at high speed - while the cockpit, the canopy and the rearward vision were much worse than in the Spitfire. Had I flown the Me 109 earlier I would have treated the aeroplane with less respect in combat"

(Jeffrey Quill)

However, from memory mind you, I think that later models of the 109 had this fixed.
The Spitty on the other hand could be trimmed to fly hands off at almost any speed.....
Note the comments about the ailerons and the visibility...
(flame cookie away, :D )
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2004, 05:05:26 AM »
Still waiting for an explaination as to why the Flettner tab was added to the rudder.

While that is being explained, can anyone explain why the Flettner tabs were also installed on the ailerons.

Must be some truth to the high control forces required by the pilot for manuevering at high speeds in the 109.

Offline Crumpp

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2004, 05:30:52 AM »
Kit Carson's article is based on Eric Browns "Enemy flight detachment" reports.  Lets go to the source.


From Eric Browns "Wings of the Luftwaffe".  The plane actually being flown is a Bf-109G6/U2 with the underwing gondolas.  The test flight had a "steady diet" of 109's throughout the war begining with a 109E3 and ended flying a 109G14/AS.  Postwar even  more types were flown and evaluated.

"A see-saw battle for supremacy developed until 1942 when the Spitfire Mk IX widened the performance gap and the Bf-109 dropped off the chart to be replaced by the FW-190A"

"......if not a great fighter from the pilots viewpoint the Bf-109G was of vital importance to the Luftwaffe on every front the service was committed and a warplane worthy of respect"


"Another shortcoming was the lack of any rudder trimming device.  This meant it was neccessary to apply moderate right rudder during the climb and considerable left rudder during a dive.  "


"At its rather disappointing low level cruising speed of 240 mph the Gustav was certainly a delightful to fly, but the situation changed as speed increased; in a dive at 400 mph the controls felt as if they siezed!"

"However, if kept in its element, above 25,000 feet, the 109G performed efficiently as both a dogfighter and a bomber interceptor"

Eric Brown was hardly advancing an agenda other than figuring out the best tactic to shoot down Luftwaffe planes.  The man lived in Germany almost half his life.  His liking and respect for all things German oozes through his evaluations.  Are they the end all word on Luftwaffe Iron??  Of course not, the RAF didn't have access to Daimler mechanics or factory trained techs to maintain the planes.  So with that being said lets check out an official RLM document from the folks who did have the techs to maintain the planes.  

Hauptman Gollob's and Test pilot Heinrich Beauvais comments from the earlier mentioned 109 vs 190 test.  The aircraft being flown are a Bf-109F-4 and an FW-190A2.

The test is reprinted in "Focke-Wulf FW 190A:  An illustrated History of the Luftwaffe's Legendary Aircraft" by Deitmar Hermann,  Ulrich Leverenz, and Eberhart Weber.

"The FW 190's control Forces were rated as low.  Even at 700 km/h the aircraft can be flown with acceptable control forces, unlike the Bf-109F4.  Manuverabiliity is good and noticabley superior to the Bf-109F4, especially in reversals at higher speeds.  The FW-190's rolling ability represents a significant advance which will have positive effects in aerial combat.  It has yet to be determined whether the FW-190 turns tighter than the Bf-109."

According to Beauvis there was tendency to disbelieve the turning radius of the 190 amoung the engineers.  He states that although turn radius was not actually measured during the test, based on turn times, the 109F was clearly superior to the 190A2.  He also states that Hauptmann's Gollobs attitude was typified by his choice of callsigns.  "Adler" for himself, and "Otto" for Beauvais!

Kit Carson is not wrong in his generalizations on the 109G.  It is simply third hand information for the most part.  However they still hold true especially when you factor in the altitude variable.

Crumpp

Offline Batz

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2004, 05:51:45 AM »
Milo,

You know very well Flettner tabs weren’t "common".

Angus,

Did you read what you quoted? Tell me how you think it relates to what Isegrim said. Go back and read what was written.

Even so,

Quote
which gave it a heavy footload at high speed


you can't get any more ambiguous then that.

Crump,

Carson doesn't know wft he’s talking about. He has been beaten to death for years on many forums. Maybe HoHun will have more patience and go through and debunk the obvious for you but I doubt any one else will waste anymore time reading your opinions on the validity of Carson. It is just nonsense.

Offline MiloMorai

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2004, 06:14:37 AM »
Batz, every 109K-4, the G-10s and the G-14ASs had a Flettner tab on the rudder. That is, at a minimum, 8000 a/c. There is even documentation that the G-6AS (686 produced) had a rudder Flettner tab.

How can you say they were not common when that is around 25% of 109 production?

Quote
Milo,

You know very well Flettner tabs weren’t "common".

Offline Angus

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2004, 06:24:03 AM »
Batz, please be more specific. What line from Isengrim? The 400 mph control heaviness & the 109's speed?
Honestly :confused:
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)