Author Topic: 109 it fly wrong  (Read 15229 times)

Offline Batz

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2004, 06:28:10 AM »
Actually didnt read your post, well I read it but wasn't "reading it". I thought you were baiting him into another "flettner tabs for ailerons" like the ubi threads.

Offline MiloMorai

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2004, 06:53:15 AM »
Now that Ubi thread brought many a chuckle, rolling eyes and slow head shakes with the incredulous posts by the 'luvers'.:)

Anyways, there had to be a reason why the Flettners were installed.


Just to put to rest my tag as a German 'hater', used by some people, the only a/c I 'fly' are those of Kurt Tank. Only real pilots 'fly' his a/c.;);):aok

Offline straffo

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2004, 07:00:58 AM »
I think the idea that the LW had fat leg is an urban legend.

As Mark Hanna say (109J):
Quote
The speed's picked up to the '109 cruise of about 235-240 mph and now the tail is right in the middle and no rudder input is necessary.


from http://www.bf109.com/flying.html

But it's true above cruise speed (109E) :
Quote
Absence of rudder trimmer is a bad feature, although at low speeds the practical consequences are not so alarming as the curves might suggest, since the rudder is fairly light on the climb. At high speeds, however, the pilot is seriously inconvenienced, as above 300 mph about 2 1/2 degrees of port (left) rudder are needed for flight with no sideslip and a very heavy foot load is needed to keep this on. In consequence the pilot's left foot becomes tired, and this affects his ability to put on left rudder in order to assist a turn to port (left). Hence at high speeds the Bf 109E turns far more readily to the right than to the left.


From RAE trial on the same page.


Concerning the flettner tab,if I remember correctly the rudder is setup on ground ,perhaps the flettner tab are easier to tune than the previous system ?

Offline straffo

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2004, 09:18:54 AM »

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2004, 12:42:13 PM »
Rudder Flettner tabs appeared on Bf 109G-6s as early as 1943 with the tall tail units. The reason is obvious, to lighten forces at the higher and higher speeds these fighters began to operate at. Ie. Eric Browns mention flight with G-6/U2 with gunpods, which also had a tall tail unit with Flettner, describes the control forces as "the rudder being light, the ailerons moderately light, and the elevator extremely heavy".

Another German doc on 109G-1 manouverbility, I guess this means w/o the Rudder Flettner, notes that the "Rudder effectiveness at very high speeds is 'very good' ".

As for aileron Flettners, we know these were used, ie. for some odd reasons most German drawings of 109K show them ;) , there are also example of G-6s being so equipped. The most convincing example of them being mounted are the pictures taken in the WNF (Austria) Bf 109 paint, where they are being mounted on G-6s in a larger scale. It was a general tendency to compensate for increasing speed of the fighter, along with the appearance of Frise type ailerons of the Bf 109F, which also help to reduce ailron forces (and BTW, detailed data on ailerons of Spit I and 109E show the 109 having WAY lighter ailerons at 400mph, IIRC this was posted in the roll rate thread)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2004, 02:46:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Rudder Flettner tabs appeared on Bf 109G-6s as early as 1943 with the tall tail units. The reason is obvious, to lighten forces at the higher and higher speeds these fighters began to operate at.  



Not according to Prien/Rodieke; it was from early 1944 than many G-6s were so equiped. If it was from early 1943, then that would mean right from the start of production, since the first production G-6s went to the Med in Feb 1943.

Barbi, 'rudder effectivness' has nothing to do with the force exerted by the pilot on the rudder pedal to keep the a/c flying straight. As straffo quoted for the E, a heavy foot was required at speeds above 300mph. This would have gotten worse with the more powerful engines in later 109s, at least until the Flettner tab, but even then.....

Offline Angus

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2004, 03:33:27 PM »
Will have a look at the roll rate thread.
However, JQ did not seem to agree with it, and he happened to be criticizing the Spitfire's aileron control, NOT being particularly pleased with it.
Seems to me that the 109, just like the Spitfire was restlessly being improved and modified.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2004, 05:19:49 PM »
Hi Kweassa,

>I'm aeronautically impaired, and have always wondered just exactly what Carson was so wrong about.

Carson's approach is to declare the Me 109 aerodynamically inferior to the Supermarine Spitfire because of the latter's lower zero-lift drag coefficient.

However, as both types historically were quite similar in their top speed, that would have required the Me 109 to compensate the higher drag with higher power.

Assuming that the Me 109 had just 10% more drag than the Spitfire, the Meesserschmitt would have needed 33% more power just to achieve the same top speed as the Spitfire (at the same altitude).

For an example, let's say both aircraft's top speed at sea level is 480 km/h.

Now what happens in manoevring combat at 240 km/h? Due to the cubic relationship mentioned above, at 1/2 of the top speed, our planes need only 1/8 of the top-speed power to overcome parasitical drag. Let's assume a Spitfire with 1000 HP and a Me 109 with 1330 HP - the Spitfire would have 875 HP excess power at 300 km/h, while the Me 109 would have 1164 HP excess power available.

This is an advantage of 289 HP which - assuming a 10% weight advantage for the Me 109 because they always were lighter than Spitfires - would translate into a climb rate advantage of about 1550 fpm.

Wow! :-) That's more like the difference between the Me 109 and the P-40 - the Spitfire compared much more favourably!

Lesson learned: Given the choice between a draggy but powerful fighter and a sleek but weak fighter, we'll always go for the drag monster :-) Obviously, the drag monster will rule at low speeds where the significance of drag greatly decreases.

I hope that explains why the Me 109 would have been greatly superior to the Spitfire in a close encounter if Carson's claim about its high drag were correct. ("Like golf scores, the lower the better, and no fudging.") As you know, the Spitfire did very well in close encounters!

The truth is, the Me 109 generally had about as much power available as the Spitfire (it changed with altitude, so it's hard to nail down), and reached about the same top speeds, too.

For the Me 109E vs. Spitfire I comparison, which I have analysed in some detail, it actually looks as if at the same power, the Me 109E should have been a bit faster than the Spitfire I. The excess power advantage accordingly resided with the Spitfire, at least at those altitudes were the Merlin could exploit the 100 octane fuel.

(Reality of course is more complex than I could describe in this space, with induced drag, exhaust thrust, propeller efficiency and everything else ... but still, as a rule of thumb - pick the drag monster :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2004, 05:37:01 PM »
Hi Crumpp,

>Eric Brown was hardly advancing an agenda other than figuring out the best tactic to shoot down Luftwaffe planes.  

Eric Brown certainly did a much better job analyising the Me 109 than Carson :-) With regard to performance, I suspect the captured Me 109G wasn't quite up to par, but there is a lot of confusing data around for the Gustav series.

>Kit Carson is not wrong in his generalizations on the 109G.  

Well, I hope my above analysis was a help in showing why in his central claim about the Me 109, he indeed is wrong :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Angus

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2004, 03:23:19 AM »
Comparing the Spit I and 109E actually shows how little the difference was between them, and on 87 oct fuel the power was practically the same. Other factors, such as propeller design would also count.
Did the 109 have that much more drag? The Spit would however have more lift induced drag (more total lift) or what?
A Spit I with a fixed pitch or 2 pitch airscrew would be about as fast as a 109E on the 87 oct fuel, but climb less, but the Spit with a CS Screw would be slower, however climb better. Really so little difference, that just little changes will swap the cup.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2004, 05:18:30 AM »
Which captured 109G?  The test flight at Farnborough had multiple 109G's to choose from.  In Eric Browns words "a steady diet of Me-109's".  Amoung the Gustav's available were a 109G-2 and a 109G14/U4.  Got pics of both in RAF colors.

Carson got his data from Farnborough.  I don't see where his conclusions are wrong.  Eric Brown uses the word "considerable" to describe the rudder forces in a dive on a 109, others use "seriously inconvenienced", Carson choose "a very heavy foot" and lastly the Luftwaffe used "unacceptable".
 

It's funny how everyone just skipped over the RLM report by Hauptmann Gollob.  Gollob, who made it known he favoured the 109 before the test even started, comments on the control forces as unacceptable for the 109F4 at speeds above 700 pm/h.

Again, what is so wrong with Carson's conclusions?  He wrote an article in which he generalized the aircraft's handling NOT it's production history for a PILOTS magazine.  He attempted to explain WHY the 109 was obsolete by 1943 for his readers.  He got the reason wrong but nonetheless the fact remains, the 109 WAS obsolete by 1943.  Messerschimtt knew it, the Allies knew it, and the Luftwaffe knew it.  Only one's who do not seem to know it are some folks in this forum.

Crumpp

Offline Virage

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2004, 09:01:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
... the fact remains, the 109 WAS obsolete by 1943. ...
Crumpp


History has proven the design philosophy behind the 109.  Maximizing Specific E with  Low drag and High Power to Weight ratio is the signature for modern fighters.  

Leading edge slats have also stood the test of time.

US caught on post Korea.

If the 109 was obsolete, it would not of served as a successful front line fighter  the entire war vs. the allied 'non-obsolete' aircraft.
JG11

Vater

Offline MiloMorai

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2004, 10:36:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Virage

If the 109 was obsolete, it would not of served as a successful front line fighter  the entire war vs. the allied 'non-obsolete' aircraft.


Messerschmitt tried to design replacement a/c > the 209 and 309. Now why was that? This to me says the 109 was getting long in the tooth. The DB engine in the 190/152 would have been a better a/c.

Offline GScholz

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2004, 10:51:11 AM »
The 109 was no more obsolete in 1945 than the Spitfire. Both were constantly redesigned, and neither were the same planes as those that battled it out in 1940. To say that the 109 was obsolete is a fallacy.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Crumpp

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109 it fly wrong
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2004, 11:08:27 AM »
Again,  

Only folks in this forum are holding on to the wishful fantasy the 109 was not obsolete by 1943.   Even the Luftwaffe knew the truth.  

Crumpp