Author Topic: Need assistance with selecting a hunting rifle  (Read 3116 times)

Offline mipoikel

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Need assistance with selecting a hunting rifle
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2004, 03:42:13 AM »
In my knowledge, 308 is the most used caliber in Finland for moosehunting.
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Offline txmx

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« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2004, 03:51:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mipoikel
In my knowledge, 308 is the most used caliber in Finland for moosehunting.


OK hey we go again LOL 308 is every 30 caliber .

Measure any bullett weather its a 30-30 or a 30-06 and it will be  you got it 308

Now this is more what you might want for a good hunting rig.

Winchester leredo 300 magnum  w/ 40x tasco custom shop scope.



Offline mipoikel

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« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2004, 04:32:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
No, every .30 cal is not necessarily .308 inch.

We are obviously talking about the .308 NATO/Winchester round.


Yes. This is what I meant . 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Win)
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Offline RKBA

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« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2004, 04:53:23 AM »
With all this chat about .308, I happened to notice that he was from finland.  Personally I think a good hunting rig for him would be a Mosin-Nagant action in 7.62x54r (the other russian 7.62).  Surplus Mosins can be had for about 100 USD, and 200 grain 7.62x54r soft points can be found for about 25 USD.  You would only want to feed the 200 grain round through a 91/30 or a Sako M-39 though.  M-39's and M-44's are only accurate with 146-148 grain bullets.  The accuracy on the Mosins are pretty incredible and it is a highly underrated gun. I took 4 deer last year with my 91/30, and my only problem was over penetration.  If I overpenetrate a deer with that, elk shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Offline LLv34 Jarsci

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« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2004, 05:48:41 AM »
Well, I probably take used rifle over a new one, because good used is almost as good as new, and the price is much more userfriendly.

But if I decide to go and buy a new one, Tikka T3 Battue lite will be my choice.

Short barreled--> easy to travel with it. Also faster aiming and the ranges will be between 30-250 m it is accurate enough. Maybe installing aimpoint on it. It costs 780€ 308 or 9.3x62.

9.3 shots are at least twice the price of 308 ammunition... one training shot costs 1.2€ for 9.3mm and for 308 its about 60 cents when bought in batches of 100 shots. Hunting shot for 9.3 is about 1.8 € per piece and for 308 its about 1 €.

Gonna think about this for a while. But I have time, hunting starts in October... :)

Offline flakbait

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Need assistance with selecting a hunting rifle
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2004, 07:48:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jester
My mistake Flakbait, I wasn't clear. I ment the "bullet" is the same size - not the whole round. The Russian round is 39  while the NATO round is 51 in length.

Still where range isn't an issue - it's more than big enough to hunt with. If you need something bigger you better make DAMN SURE it isn't hunting YOU.  :D



No problem, just be a tad more clear when talking calibers. I thought you might have meant the bullet diameter was the same, but I wasn't entirely sure; hence my post. As for the 7.62x39, it can be a dandy hunting round for deer or other light/medium weight game out to 300 yards or so. For something as big as elk/moose you can forget it; the x39 doesn't have enough energy for a hard hit. Anytime you start talking about trying to drop a thousand-pound-plus critter you go into magnum rifle territory. Minimum muzzle energy figures to drop something that big are at least 2,000 ft-lbs, preferably with a heavy-weight bullet.



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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Need assistance with selecting a hunting rifle
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2004, 08:33:12 AM »
First off, a 45-70 should be limited to shots of under 200 yards. With factory ammunition, less than that, more like 150 yards. Longer shots can be successfully taken. However, not everyone is an expert marksman and able to make such shots with hair in the sights under hunting conditions.

The object of the excercise is to take the animal as quickly and humanely as possible with one shot.

The .308 Winchester, AKA 7.62 NATO, is only about 10% less powerful than the .30-06 Springfield, whether factory loads or handloads are used. Used properly, it is quite capable of taking anything in North America, although not ideal by any stretch, and neither is the .30-06.

As far as an all around cartridge/rifle combination that will take any animal you are likely to hunt, save African dangerous game which really requires special weapons and hunting techniques that are NOT the same as 90% of the other hunting in the world, I'd say the 300 Winchester Magnum in a Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle with a 24"-26" barrel.

I have one, although it is actually a Model 770. The .300 Winchester Magnum can be easily and inexpensively handloaded from the .30-.30 Winchester power level all the way up to my favorite all around load, which is a maximum load for the .300 Winchester Magnum.

My hunting load, which has taken everything from the common groundhog at 400 yards to large Elk at 450 yards, is a Sierra Matchking 168 grain hollow point boat tail spitzer at just over 3250 feet per second. I will not publish the "recipe" for that load for obvious reasons. It is safe and shows no pressure signs IN MY RIFLE. It shoots extremely flat and hits extremely hard. It is also a common load for 1000 yard benchrest shooting in limited classes where you must shoot a production rifle with only a rebarrel and action job allowed and use a production cartridge as opposed to a wildcat.

Shot placement is a requirement for the use of that bullet since it won't smash through massive amounts of bone at long ranges, it is after all a medium weight bullet. Recoil is very manageable with that bullet and load, although it is by no means a mild kicker. It is manageable in that you can shoot 20 to 40 rounds in a session to verify that both you and the rifle are ready to go. It is manageable in that it will not detract from accuracy for the experienced rifle marksman.

You can use heavier bullets, but accuracy simply won't be as good, nor will trajectory be as flat. Since most hunters do not carry rangefinders and shoot their game on flat terrain with zero wind, accuracy and flat trajectory combined with a short flight time due to high speed which cuts down on wind drift are big advantages. Heavier bullets will smash through bone and penetrate deeper on poorly placed shots, but not without the price of less accuracy, less speed, higher trajectory, and longer flight times. Not to mention substantial increases in recoil.

If I had to pick one rifle, to hunt as much game as possible with the best chance of success, a rifle like mine would be the choice. I can easily take ANY North American large game with my rifle and load.

Were I building a new one, and I may, I'd build it like this:

Winchester Model 70 Classic with controlled round feed.
Shilen, Douglas, or Hart 26" semi sporter profile barrel with gain twist rifling.
Simmons 6x24x50 scope.
Action job, glass bedding, and free floated barrel.

And I'd use something very close to my current pet load, adjusted for the rifle's preference.

There are more expensive rifles, barrels, and scopes available, but 999 out of 1000 shooters couldn't shoot/tell the difference on a bet.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2004, 08:40:29 AM »
Do yourself a BIG favor if you intend to hunt and shoot often. Get an affordable reloading press (An RCBS Partner kit is plenty good enough) and the dies, shell holder, and manuals to go with it. If you shoot often, and especially if factroy loaded ammunition is expensive and hard to find, that simple little kit (it also includes a scale, a powder funnel, a primer tray, a case lube pad, case lube, and a manual) will save you more than you paid for it VERY quickly. It will allow you to find what shoots best for you and your rifle. It will allow you to have that ammo in good supply, any time you want it. It will allow you to shoot for about 30% the cost of factory ammuntion.
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2004, 08:57:29 AM »
Quote
Sorry Morph did not mean to pick on your post but i can quaranty the 308 as in 308 nato will NOT kill any animal on the planet.


Weak minded troll... If you beleive that you know nothing of guns. I've been doing this all my live. Hunting since I was 12 years old and before that in the woods with my father. I know what the 308 Winchester can do. Your insane if you beleive your last statment.
Pick on me all you want. I dont look at it that way. I work in the gun bisiness. I am asked questions ever single day as to why I think this that or the other thing... I know what works well and I know what works better. Why? Because I've used it. The 308 Win is nothing more than a shorter and fatter 30-06 Springfield. Making it shorter and fater and changing the neck of the case also makes it one of the most efficient rounds out there.

When I said the 308 has killed everything on the Planet I mean JUST that.

Quote
NO Unless you are lucky enough to hit him in the heart or brain at a fairly short distance.


I look and see how you talk about being a hunter, but you speak like that of someone who has no idea what hes talking about. Sure you know your calibers. But that doesn't mean squad.

AND you are comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about the 460 WM. Christ man. He's not going on an afican dangerous game hunt.

You can hit a White Tail deer in the gut with a 460. Its still going to run its heart out. How "sportsman like" is that? Its about shot placement. Not about the size of the bullet and how fast and hard it hits. It stays that way until it you start to talk about dangerous game.
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2004, 09:03:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by txmx
OK hey we go again LOL 308 is every 30 caliber .

Measure any bullett weather its a 30-30 or a 30-06 and it will be  you got it 308

Now this is more what you might want for a good hunting rig.

Winchester leredo 300 magnum  w/ 40x tasco custom shop scope.




LOL:rofl

Is there a place to send trollers?

Why on gods green earth would you want to lug that heavy azzz beast through woods or anywhere else?
Thats no hunting rifle. Surely not by american standards nor anyone elses.

Btw, 30 cal can be .307, .308, .303... I can go on and on and on... So not every 30 caliber bullet is of .308 dia.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2004, 09:06:09 AM by Morpheus »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2004, 09:20:55 AM »
The .308 Winchester is actually less than 10% lower in power than the .30-06 Springfield as I stated above. In all honesty, it is capable of killing any animal on the planet. It may not be the ideal choice for a particular hunt, but it can take any animal.

Realize that rather large (read HUGE) bull elephants have been killed while charging WITH A 44 MAGNUM REVOLVER. Much as I dearly love my Dan Wesson 44 Magnum, even with my hottest loads (and I've got some redline stuff in my bag right now) it ain't as powerful as a 30-30, nevermind a .308 .

That being said, a .308 Winchester is NOT the round I'd choose to hunt Elk or Moose with. However, also realize that Jack O'Connor, editor of Outdoor Life magazine, and probably one of the top big game hunters of the last century, killed about 90% of all of the animals he shot with a .270, which is a necked down .30-06. That means he took at least one or more of each of around 90% of all game animals on the planet with a .270 Winchester, which is NOT as powerful as a .308 Winchester.

Large caliber dangerous game rifles are of absolutely no use to 9999 out of every 10,000 hunters on the planet. Truthfully, less than 0.1% of all hunters have any need for anything larger than a .300 Winchester Magnum. If it ain't in Africa and it ain't true dangerous game, and you can't easily kill it with one shot from a .308 Winchester, you need to learn to shoot, or you need to stay in the camp with the ladies (the ones that DON'T hunt, the ones that DO hunt can likely out shoot you). That does not mean that the .308 is the choice for staring down the charge of a wounded large bear, or dangerous African game. But 9999 out of 10,000 hunters will never face such a situation in a lifetime.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2004, 09:29:19 AM »
Morph, you'd be surprised how light and easy to carry my Model 770 .300 Winchester Magnum is, despite a 24" barrel, blonde walnut stock, Simmons scope, and Harris Lightweight bipod.

I carried it effortlessly all over the Smokies a couple of years ago hunting bear. In fact, on the last day, I carried it, a canteen, my lunch in a waste pack, my Dan Wesson in a Galco Jackprettythang Big Game holster with two extra speedloaders, for half the day one end of a 400# black bear, in Joyce Kilmer Park in North Carolina. I carry my Dan Wesson or my Ruger on those hunts for close shots at deer or wild boar. I prefer my revolvers to rifles at close range for fast work on deer and boar.

If I had wanted to carry ONE gun for that hunt, I'd have gotten a 45-70 lever gun. I may get one.



(edited, as I forgot the board censor would tag the brand name of my shoulder holster)
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Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2004, 09:43:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Hehe , here in Finland Elks (or moose , whatever , dont know the difference) ain´t the size of a rhino.. :)

308 is sufficient enough, but I usually go where the mainstream people doesn't  ...

have to check out the prices of the ammunition first..


Please take the time to learn before you go!  Unless you want to get your self in a heck of a lot of trouble.

Most folks in Alaska use 308 to 30-06 sized  for moose.
Of the hundreds of moose that I've stumbles across in Alaska (hiking, skiing, etc.), most were within 100 yards.  These guns have plenty of E to kill at that range.  

eskimo

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2004, 09:52:57 AM »
Quote
Morph, you'd be surprised how light and easy to carry my Model 770 .300 Winchester Magnum is, despite a 24" barrel, blonde walnut stock, Simmons scope, and Harris Lightweight bipod.


I have several larger rifles.  Two winchetster mod70's. One is in 338 win mag and the other is in 375 H&H. the 375 has a 24"bbl and the 338 is 26. I hunted with the 338 in montana for a long time. Its fine when you walking tundra, but  if you get into thick timber its just a pain in the ass.

What Tmx has is in no way a "hunting" rifle of traditional standards. Not for elk and not meant to be carried for miles upon miles tracking game.
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Offline txmx

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« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2004, 02:57:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS


What Tmx has is in no way a "hunting" rifle of traditional standards. Not for elk and not meant to be carried for miles upon miles tracking game.


It is a sniper rifle.
there fore it is for hunting "men of coures"
And yes i have carried over many miles of Colorado mountains around Pagosa Springs on Elk hunts.

It weights a bit more than your standard hunting rifle about 15lbs but that adds to it stability and with the muzzle break recoil is like a 223.

It is one hell of a 1000 meter gun.

So yes with the proper sling you can carry it around all day with no trouble at all.

And for the dude above saying hey you can kill a bull elephant with a 44 mag LOL .
Again Im sure you can if you ram it up his arse or hit him in the eye socket :rofl

Never been to africa but my father and uncles have and they where all very glad they where using 577 nitro exspess .

LOL 44 mag LOL you guys are killing me stop it please.
:rofl