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Author Topic: Su-35 is WAY overmodeled  (Read 1612 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2004, 08:55:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
*lol* The death of dogfighting has been announced many times before, and they were all proven wrong. The AMRAAM has a minimum range. I believe it is about five miles (or was it kilometres).


AMRAAM is effective within 300m... but can not make the turns required in a "dogfight" but, as you seem to think, dogfighting will continue.... :rolleyes:

Maybe in an engagement between Bolivia and Cloumbia... LOL.

Nowadays AWACS sees you 300 miles away, and a missile whacks you from 20.  Guess thats dogfighting, eh?

:lol
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Offline SunTracker

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2004, 09:12:51 PM »
Dogfighting dead? Chit, the USAF and USN practices dogfighting very routinely.  

In fact, I was just reading a report this weekend of a F-14 dogfighting a Luftwaffe Mig29 and winning due to the Mig29 overstressing its airframe in a 9+ g turn.
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Offline Jester

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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2004, 09:27:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
AMRAAM is effective within 300m... but can not make the turns required in a "dogfight" but, as you seem to think, dogfighting will continue.... :rolleyes:

Maybe in an engagement between Bolivia and Cloumbia... LOL.

Nowadays AWACS sees you 300 miles away, and a missile whacks you from 20.  Guess thats dogfighting, eh?

:lol


Been said many times..........and they were wrong everytime they said it. Military Aviators know this. How fast do you think those jets will take to cross that 50 down to 20 miles at Mach 1+?

That is why they still have the old low tech 20mm Vulcan cannon on the F-22 RAPTOR.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2004, 09:32:35 PM »
when is the last "dogfight" you ever heard of?
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Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2004, 09:32:37 PM »
Dogfighting is a daily routine for aircrews these days.  They learned the hard way during Vietnam that dogfighting with guns is a real possibility.  Many early F-4s were killed because they lacked a gun.  Aircrews fly against everything possible to try and perfect their dogfighting skills.  

To sit here and say close quarters combat will never be an issue again is rather naive on some folks part.  Even what is considered to be one of the worlds best fighters (F/A-22)still had a gun installed just in case.  Granted it won't be the norm but it is still a high possibility.

I wouldn't also sit here and claim to know the AMRAAMs real minimum/maximum effective range because it's classified.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2004, 09:40:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
I wouldn't also sit here and claim to know the AMRAAMs real minimum/maximum effective range because it's classified.



Bout 20 different quotes so far... all from 200 meters to 5km.

Given the physics of the weapon, my bet is that its around 300 to 500 meters, but that depends on it's programming almost entirely... that and speed off drop...
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Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2004, 09:47:31 PM »
GS there is a distinct difference in how many Gs and aircraft can withstand without structural damage opposed to how many it can withstand before it essential over gs the airframe to the point of inducing structural damage.  

I'm sure in a real world situation that wouldn't make a difference.  But in a training enviroment if the airframe gets over gd they will back off to save the airframe from major down time for inspections and possible repairs.  

Many companies will claim their maximum over g conditions to be extremely high.  Typically these are at the point of major structural failures though.  There are also some companies that rate their over g condition alot lower than what it can actually handle before structural failure.  This is to allow for extended airframe life. Some are being extremely cautious while the others are giving the extremely critical over g rating.  Not sure which is best though.
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Offline Jester

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2004, 09:48:35 PM »
Always like the SU-33 from the series myself.

But that comes from my "built in" Navy bias I guess.  :D

Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the Soviets had been able to put together a real "Blue Water" carrier force and how we would have reacted to it. Would be interesting to see how the evolution of their carrier force would have come along.


Looks like we will have to wait and see how China's is going to turn out. Damn shame to see such a nice looking ship turned into a "Casino" even if it was one of the "Bad Guys."  ;)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2004, 10:35:22 PM by Jester »
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Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2004, 09:49:45 PM »
Bohdi I'm just curious but what practical experience do you have with the AIM-120 or it's capabilities?
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Offline Jester

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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2004, 10:01:16 PM »
Yea, but while they have a good fleet going - it is mostly made up of "Used" equipment. Big difference from a "Blue Water" Fleet made for the purpose of power projection on the Superpower level of play. They could probabily still put up a HELL of a local fight.

You seen the plans of the Gorshkov that they were proposing to turn her into a full Fleet Carrier?


TOP: As Built. MIDDLE & BOTTOM: Proposed Rebuild

Model of Proposed Refit

Interesting refit. Still going to be mighty crowded. A/C complement of only around 30 (24 Sea Fulcrum's + some Helix Helicopters). Deck crew is defanately going to be busy during operations!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2004, 10:20:17 PM by Jester »
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2004, 10:04:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Bohdi I'm just curious but what practical experience do you have with the AIM-120 or it's capabilities?


Nothing more than a aero engineering degree, 10+ years of working on aircraft and systems, and spending some time looking at the spec sheets of Ratheon.  You are right, the min range is "classified", but I have some friends who flew 14's and say that my educated guesses are not out of this realm.

Same question back to you.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2004, 10:06:16 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL* You have NO idea what you're talking about!


My bet is that I know a bit more about it then you do, but have at poking fun all you like...  being a butt is more important than the facts anyday.

Ohh, and still waiting on the answer to the last series of dogfights... not isolated incidents.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2004, 10:08:29 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
I guess Bodhi has never heard of visually identifying unknown contacts...



Gee, the lowlight capable video on the 14 is capable of seeing and id' out to 100+ nm....
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2004, 10:12:24 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
There were at least twelve of them in GW1. One Saudi F-15 shot down two Iraqi Mirage F1's with AIM-9's in one engagement alone.


Show links... my bet is over half of what you talk as dog fights were distance engagements of over 6km
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Offline Otto

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2004, 10:26:42 PM »
Nice aerobatics, do they also build a Combat Version?  It's quaint that they still use pilots.  

Did anyone see the L-19 Blanik Sailplane in the first video?  Wow!  I've got about 100 hours in those.  Execellent aircraft from the Czech Republic.
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