Author Topic: Su-35 is WAY overmodeled  (Read 1615 times)

Offline Cobra412

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2004, 10:28:23 PM »
Bohdi, 10 year F-15 Avionics Specialist.  Pre MSIP APG-63, MSIP APG-63, APG-63(V) 1,and APG-70 radars.  Full access to all documents on every weapon capable of being used on all F-15 airframes including the AIM-9X.  Currently involved in test and evaluations of new systems being implemented on the F-15 airframe.

Offline Jester

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2004, 10:30:28 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well, India already got one carrier, although it's a VSTOL carrier. The Russian carrier will give their navy a lot more capability, but not anything like the USN of course.


Yea, their INS VIKRANT (ex-HMS HERMES) is due to hang on till 2010 but she is got to be getting near the end of her rope.

Will agree with you though - the MIG-29K's will be a big improvement over the Sea Harriers if nothing but in the range they can cover.
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Offline Jester

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2004, 11:02:51 PM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
The USN is also moving away from the dedicated interceptor/fleet defence F-14 to a more homogenous F-18 multirole force.


Which is a MAJOR prettythanged mistake IMHO!

In this day and age when more and more countries are having cruise missiles coming online with their forces I just don't see the reasoning (other than to save a buck) in reduceing the F-14 fleet without something equal to or better than it to replace it. The "Super Hornet" for all the PR they put on it cannot take out a low flying cruise missile or keep aircraft out as far as the Tomcats with their Phoenix missiles.

The reasoning behind this one just escapes me.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2004, 11:10:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Bohdi, 10 year F-15 Avionics Specialist.  Pre MSIP APG-63, MSIP APG-63, APG-63(V) 1,and APG-70 radars.  Full access to all documents on every weapon capable of being used on all F-15 airframes including the AIM-9X.  Currently involved in test and evaluations of new systems being implemented on the F-15 airframe.


Thats awesome, so, are you in implementation, repair and maintenance, design?  Just curious.  Myself, never been any closer to an AMRAAM than to look at one on a table years ago.  Was interesting piece of equipment then.  So, am I in the ballpark?  Understood if you can not answer that.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2004, 11:17:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I think their problem is that they don't have anything to replace the F-14 with (that they can afford). A navalized F-22 would be sweet though, but is the airframe suited for navalization?


The reason the F14 is being phased out is the fact that during the Clinton Administration, the 14's tooling was destroyed to guarantee that the aircraft would be replaced by more modern systems.  That is why today, the fleet scavanges from mothballed and museum 14's for usable parts.  As far as cost, I think it would be cheaper to rebuild the 14 assembly live than to navalize the 22.  That, and the 22 is not gonna carry anywhere near the load a tomcat does, or be able to carry the Phoenix....
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Offline Jester

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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2004, 11:57:38 PM »
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The reason the F14 is being phased out is the fact that during the Clinton Administration, the 14's tooling was destroyed to guarantee that the aircraft would be replaced by more modern systems.  That is why today, the fleet scavanges from mothballed and museum 14's for usable parts.  As far as cost, I think it would be cheaper to rebuild the 14 assembly live than to navalize the 22.  That, and the 22 is not gonna carry anywhere near the load a tomcat does, or be able to carry the Phoenix....



Did not know that Bodhi! :eek: I knew "Slick Willie" gutted the USN but didn't know that.

Agree, don't see them "Navalizing" the F-22 for the same reason they didn't do the F-15. Would take away from what gives the a/c it's real edge. Also I don't think you could ever get the F-22 where it could opperate the Phoenix missile system = by the time you did you most likely could have built a whole new system or close to it. And while the Phoenix system is still the best in town for range - it is over 20 years old. Time for something "New and Improved" IMHO.

The US Navy is still a place where an "Interceptor" still has a role and can do a better job than a pure "Fighter" type aircraft like the F-15, F-16 & F-18. The farther they can keep the enemy from the fleet the better it is. Don't think there is another aircraft out there you can hang 6x AIM-54's off of like you can the Tomcat.
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2004, 12:06:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I think their problem is that they don't have anything to replace the F-14 with (that they can afford). A navalized F-22 would be sweet though, but is the airframe suited for navalization?


The Navy will have to do the same thing they did with the YF-17 to make it suitable for Naval use.  But WTF do I know about Naval aviation, I got a NAM for driving a forktruck on the flightdeck of my AFS.
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2004, 12:14:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I doubt it was an "Executive Order" from the White House. Sounds more like something the Pentagon would do ... perhaps to get the WH to sign off on a new plane for the Navy. Ironic isn't it?


He just said "during the Clinton Administration" not "on the orders of the Clinton Administration."  I know, could be an English thing but Bodhi wasn't saying it was Clinton's fault directly, just a time period reference (I think).
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2004, 12:16:00 AM »
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Originally posted by GScholz
Yes, but is the F-22's airframe suitable for carrier operation. I know the F-16's airframe was not, and that's why the YF-17 got a new lease on life (and the fact that the F-16 is a one holer).


From what I understand the YF-17 developement was to the extent that the plane had to be redesignated, thus F-18 was born.  I am sure the F-22 could be done much the same way.  That is if it's what the Navy wants to pursuit but why would it with all the $$$$ being pumped into the JSF?
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Offline Glasses

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Su-35 is WAY overmodeled
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2004, 12:21:34 AM »
I heard the F/A -18 E and F would replace the F-14 as the premier  Fleet protector ,aside from the fact I think the E and F can't carry the Phoenix I think the AMRAAMs can do a pretty good job  of defending the fleet and keeping those future  non existant bombers away from the CVN.


Oh and I meant that the AMRAAMs were good not for dogfighting but for keeping the enemy far away and outside the IR missle range. Another thing people don't take into account if and when those kills in GW1 were made from visual range and not BVR is that perhaps the ROE mandated them to visually identify the targets, though some kills if I recall were done inside the 15 to 10 nm  range with Sparrows 7Ms , most likely they wanted to minimize friendly fire incidents.  

Another thing I'd like to point out just because the USAF and the Navy practice dogfighting doesn't mean that they will encounter or they plan on engaging in ACM,  is just for insurance . The current doctrine, if I'm not mistaken, is to get in and get out as fast as you can , while taking orders from AWACS ,to not reveal the fighter's location until the last moment while using  the most passive modes or their airborne radars , get the lock ,get the kills and get out, and in the event the missiles fail, after all there is a probability they will or ROE mandates them to get close enough that they cannot use their BVR sticks then, they won't be caught with their pants down.


Again I could be wrong but I think it makes sense

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2004, 12:22:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I doubt it was an "Executive Order" from the White House. Sounds more like something the Pentagon would do ... perhaps to get the WH to sign off on a new plane for the Navy. Ironic isn't it?


Do not believe it was "executive" just that Grumman developed some enemies during slick willie's tenure, and that spelled the doom to the F-14.  Either way, all I know is that it happened during that time frame.  Thats all.
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2004, 12:26:33 AM »
You are correct.  Just look at the YF-17 compared to the final production F-18.  New gear, bigger airframe, larger wing area.  I would expect the same thing from the naval version of the Raptor (gayest name ever for a US fighter).
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Offline SunTracker

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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2004, 12:29:34 AM »
The F-14 is actually obsolete.  No U.S. carrier has ever been attacked by cruise missles or Soviet bombers.  Nor can the F-14 hold its own in modern air combat.

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2004, 12:33:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
The F-14 is actually obsolete.  No U.S. carrier has ever been attacked by cruise missles or Soviet bombers.  Nor can the F-14 hold its own in modern air combat.


Got a few 14 driver's that would love to prove you wrong... then again, you don't fly anything... other than a Cessna.

Ohh, and if it's such a POS, why is it the 14 dropped more ordanance on target and still maintained its ability to loiter as CAP then any other naval plane???
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2004, 12:36:05 AM »
"The F-14 is the best fighter today.  Period.  That's why I've crashed 3 of them."

"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo