Author Topic: Why not HO? (Read 978 times)

Edbert · « **Reply #15 on:** May 24, 2004, 10:41:18 AM »

I think we need to better define the HO. There are blatant HOs where the planes point at each other from more than 4.0K distance. These are easily avoided by me, but often the other pilot will extend out another 6.0+ and turn to do it again. Eventually I might slow him down enough to get the kill but I usually just leave, there are too many other targets to shoot at in the MA these days.

There are chance meetings where in a crowd two planes point at each other from 1.5 to 3.5 away and this is usually somewhat of a suprise to both pilots. These usually come down to an SA issue, if one sees the other fast enough to line him up game over. I can usually tell if he's "on me" or not and decide to take the shot or evade.

Then there's the snapshot where two planes have been turning with each other for at least 360 degrees (any altitude or speed or distance apart) and one guy gets a few more dregrees on the other and POW. I don't consider this an HO at all but I see it called an HO all the time, the problem is I cannot shoot a guy without pointing my plane at him, if I have the angle and he coninues to pull towards me I'll kill him. The same can be said when you are low and slow and getting B&Z'ed to death, IF you can pull your nose up towards the guy with a major advantage and shoot him in the face he's just stupid for giving you the shot. THAT is not an HO IMHO.

I usually avoid HO's for a few reasons.
1.) My plane is usually outgunned but the other HO'er, at least by the ones I KNOW are going for the HO (niki/typh/jug/hurri).
2.) If I can sucker them into one and make em miss I have the tactical advantage in the rest of the fight.
3.) My convergence is really close and I'll lose more than the 50% you guys are talking about.

I'll take the HO if I have him seriously outgunned, or have a tactical advantage or think he's notready or doesn't see me (low 12).

The derogatory classification of HO'er stems from those guys who seem to have no other skill. They'll HO extend HO extend HO extend untill they die. If I'm in a fast enough plane I enjoy killing them greatly.

EDIT:typos

SlapShot · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2004, 11:34:17 AM »

A true HO is when both planes have a guns solution on each other. Anything outside of that .. its a deflection shot for the one that has a guns solution.

I have taken extremely high deflection shots (engine compartment to cockpit) while knife fighting and have been accused of HOing. If I can shoot you and you can't shoot me ... its not an HO.

Under what conditions to take/give the HO is something different all together.

My gunnery sucks at the 6 and 12 o'clock positions, so I tend to avoid the HO shot. I find my gunnery is better when taking deflection shots.

"Forcing the would-be HO'er to actually fight in the conventional ACM way insures that those with no skill or talent, who rely exclusively on HO's for kills, do not end your mission. That is reason enough NOT to HO unless you have absolutely no viable alternative in my humble opinion."

Zazen ... couldn't agree with you more.

Innominate · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2004, 12:31:12 PM »

When you commit to an HO, you give your opponent the opportunity to pull a lead turn, not only spoiling your shot, but giving him an intitial angular advantage.

RedTop · « **Reply #18 on:** May 24, 2004, 04:56:56 PM »

Zazen , SlapShot...........

Well Said....I HATE , DESPISE and get more frustrated by somone Hoing pass after pass after pass. When your outnumberd...Well it's take what ya can most of the time. I find myself dodging Ho's even when outnumbered. That in itslef is maybe the dweebiest thing. 4 guys fighting my slow Spit V and I still have to dodge some guy screaming in when I finally get on one of em's 6 to ho me..Dodge him..loose firing..turn or reverse to try and dodge the B&Z'er and get another chance..only to be ho'ed again...then they finally get to ya..all because some numbnut cant get a kill anyother way.

Xjazz · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2004, 05:02:50 PM »

...and IRL pilots didnt need to deal with netlag.

HO as much you want but dont whine after the neg result...

All rest is just same old blaa blaa

Widewing · « **Reply #20 on:** May 24, 2004, 07:08:52 PM »

I'll tell you what I have noticed lately with increasing frequency is just about every La-7 I encounter goes for the HO. Warpy HOs are tough, as the guy is suddenly in your face... Those usually end in a collision.

Typically, if I'm flying a fighter with Hispanos or Browning .50s, I'll give the oncoming knucklehead a quick squirt at 1.2k to 1.4k and dive below his line of sight just before he fires, reversing in a climbing turn. 8 out of 10 just keep on going, disinterested in actually fighting. The remaining two do the standard zoom climb while they try to figure out what to do next.

My regards,

Widewing

bozon · « **Reply #21 on:** May 24, 2004, 08:37:01 PM »

* If your idea of dogfighting is pointing at the other plane and shooting - HO!

* If you are the kind that plays for draw and settle for no better then 1:1 K/D - HO!

* If you are in a p47 at 100 feet & 200 mph, fighting a spit 5 and he stupidly offers it - HO!

* if you feel lucky punk - HO!

Bozon

VOR · « **Reply #22 on:** May 24, 2004, 09:11:36 PM »

The HO reminds me of that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark where the big fella shows off some fancy moves with his sword, then Harrison Ford pulls his pistol and shoots him (after rolling his eyes).

Harrison Ford is a HO dweeb.

Tumor · « **Reply #23 on:** May 24, 2004, 10:03:21 PM »

Why HO?

You're either in a position in which there is no other alternative.

or

You're a "gamer".... there's no "Combat Flight Simming" involved.

nopoop · « **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2004, 11:30:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
8 out of 10 just keep on going, disinterested in actually fighting. The remaining two do the standard zoom climb while they try to figure out what to do next

So true, especially the 8 out of 10 part.

Steve · « **Reply #25 on:** May 24, 2004, 11:36:02 PM »

A classic example that has already been mentioned:

Coalt vs. a jug tonight. D-11. First merge jug goes for HO, I decline, horde E as jug does hard reverse/ break turn.

I tangle w/ a 109 that joins fray and chase him off. Jug has regained E, second merge. Jug goes for Ho and I decline. Jug has enough E to reverse and saddle up so I hard around too.

Third merge, jug goes for the HO, I decline.

Jug does a hard, flat break turn again so I chandelle up over him.

Jug tries to pull up, I tease him and let him get to 800. jug sprays wildly for a few seconds, I nose down and the jug is 300 yards out when he falls flat and I put him away.

I suggest to the jug pilot that he learn other things so he has options when his HO is declined. He tells me it was all he could do because I came in at 20k.(*sigh*.. BS)

Then he tells me it's all he could do because he was lower E. I try to explain that he became lower E than me because he doesn't know what to do after HO fails. He called me a 51 dweeb.

I then told him I had kills this month in spitV, P38, F6F, Zero, Il2, Fm2.. etc. He says all of those planes are easy planes. I end conversation... what's the point?

dedalos · « **Reply #26 on:** May 25, 2004, 08:21:52 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
I'll tell you what I have noticed lately with increasing frequency is just about every La-7 I encounter goes for the HO. Warpy HOs are tough, as the guy is suddenly in your face... Those usually end in a collision.

Typically, if I'm flying a fighter with Hispanos or Browning .50s, I'll give the oncoming knucklehead a quick squirt at 1.2k to 1.4k and dive below his line of sight just before he fires, reversing in a climbing turn. 8 out of 10 just keep on going, disinterested in actually fighting. The remaining two do the standard zoom climb while they try to figure out what to do next.

My regards,

Widewing

Wow, does enyone in your opinion fly LA7 right? You maybe be the best, but us little people have to go in to a zoom clime to buy some time to think about what to do next when we encounter your greatness. Give us time, we will learn.

Edbert · « **Reply #27 on:** May 25, 2004, 08:56:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
Wow, does enyone in your opinion fly LA7 right? You maybe be the best, but us little people have to go in to a zoom clime to buy some time to think about what to do next when we encounter your greatness. Give us time, we will learn.

Damn dedalos! Who pissed in your fruity pebbles today?

dedalos · « **Reply #28 on:** May 25, 2004, 09:16:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Damn dedalos! Who pissed in your fruity pebbles today?

lol. Well, I like the lala. How would he like it if I came out and said that the people flying 38s are skilles HOers (SlapShot not included, lol) and that after they miss the HO, they go into a zoom clime trying to figure out what to do next?

I've been HOed by all types of planes and had planes run from me. Its not fair making statements like that. Some peope are new, some are out of fuel, some low on amo, and some may be running because fo their score, and some cause HO is the only thing they know. Its not fair puting everyone in the same category and exclude yourself just because you fly a different plane.

AKIron · « **Reply #29 on:** May 25, 2004, 12:14:15 PM »

About the only time I find myself unable to avoid a HO is when I follow someone up and they reverse quickly while I'm too slow to manuever out of the way. Pisses me off every damn time. Is it my fault? Every damn time.