A call for Bush* ouster

[xrtoronto]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Hey xrtoronto*

(or strk* or anybody else* for that matter)

If it has been explained*, I missed the posting* explaining the significance of the asterisk* after bush*es name*

Can someone* enlighten me*?

If it is to seperate* GW* from GHW* then it is not needed in this* thread as GHW* is not in need of being ousted*, as he is retired*, so that must not be it*

Thanks* in advance

I saw others use it before me when mentioning Bush*...I instinctively associated it with this (_*_)

[AKIron]

Hindsight is 20/20 so they say.

The mission went south due to unexpected weather. Where I think the planning failed was in not having enough contingencies.

Anyhow, Iran invaded the sovereign nation of the United States when they invaded the US embassy there. If we had acted forcefully and decisively then, who knows what we might have been spared later?

[lazs2]

diplomats.... now that is funny... might as well be the mickey mouse club.

lazs

[Toad]

Iron, the military could have used the "Sandstorm Removal Device" during the refueling. Clearly a military omission.

[Horn]

Originally posted by muckmaw

Originally posted by Rolex

The 'war against terrorism' (which I support 100%) has been a failure.


Name 2 attacks on that have occcured since 9/11 on American Soil. Some failure, huh?

LOL, Can you name two foreign attacks on American soil that happened BEFORE 9/11? I'll even start. The WTC bombing. Bet ya can't name another. So I guess based on that the war was unnecessary, huh?


Instead of focusing on curtailing terrorism through cooperative efforts world-wide, this administration has so far misspent over $1200 per American family invading a country that had nothing to do with the WTC tragedy

We Tried being Cooperative. Remember the whole UN thing? Everyone else wanted to sit on thier hands and wait for the next bomb to go off. We took out Hitler in 1938 here.

No, actually, we had troops in place and we either needed to strike or withdraw. Don't you remember? We didn't "try to be cooperative" it was on our own hook.

; created more terrorists with a rallying call and a cause;
Does fighting crime create more criminals? Maybe we should disband out police forces too. PLus, with Iraq, we are fighting the Jihad All Star Team on their Turf, NOT OURS.[/b]

OOOh! Straw Man alert! Abusing a populace tends to make one unpopular and causes sections of said populace to rebel. Nothing to do w/ "crime" or "Jihad All Star Team," whatever that is.

caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people;
You sure you're not looking at a picture of a Saddam Era Mass Grave?

No, he's looking at the amount of Iraqi civilians killed during the invasion.

tortured hundreds who were held without cause or reason;
You've got to be kidding me? You are a victim of the media, my friend.

So the reports and pictures of abuse at the prison were false? The recent release of HUNDREDS from the prison incorrect? Sounds like you're a victim of "head in the sand" syndrome.

alienated and disillusioned most of the world and their image of America and what it is was supposed to stand for

What the world thinks is best for America..never is.

Here, we agree. However, that does not answer his statement. The image of America has always been associated with "right" and "morality" and "fair"--none of these traits were shown during the invasion. Only the agenda of an incompetent President. (Yoda) Besmirched, our reputation is.

and allowed a zealot Attorney General with a religeous agenda (The "Rapture") to sneak away with your basic, constitution-based freedoms like a thief in the night.

If you lost your freedoms, how are you able to type all these terrible things about the government and not get arrested? Better go hide in the rainforest.

Never read the Patriot Act I see. Not to worry though, you aren't alone. Now law enforcement can now go through your medical and financial records on a whim, no court order, nothing but just casual suspicion--and as a bonus, release that info freely to other arms of the Gov't. Kiss your privacy goodbye.

Rolex,

That post could be the Liberal Democrat Manifesto, and almost every word of it is completey wrong.

And yours could be the post of an unthinking right-wing Republican who accepts everything he's told.

Sad.

h

Don't think! Vote Bush!

[AKIron]

Toad, they could have had more than one team ready to go in and they certainly should have considered weather.

What I really think should have been done was that Carter should have convinced the new Iranian leaders that there would be hell to pay if they didn't release the hostages immediately. He may have tried to do this, I dunno. All I know for sure is that he failed.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by muckmaw

Originally posted by Rolex

The 'war against terrorism' (which I support 100%) has been a failure.

Name 2 attacks on that have occcured since 9/11 on American Soil. Some failure, huh?

Name 2 attacks which have occured 4 years prior to 9/11 on American Soil.

I can't recall any other "terrorist" attacks on american soil prior to 9/11 than some ahmeds trying to blow WTC with a car bomb and that okhaloma bomber, which happened to be a local terrorist, unarguably without links to middle east nuts.

Do you realise the terrorist just doesn't do attacks every year on US soil?
It can take few years.. it's way too early to defend Bush policies.. especially when there hasn't even been elections yet...

Why dont you just go ahead and list all the attacks done abroad against US interests, you wouldn't see a big difference.

[storch]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Holy ****, I just saw a commercial for Coco Puffs.  I had no idea they still made those.

Coco Puffs?? I'm cuckoo for coco puffs!!

[Toad]

Desert One

Pretty good description. I'm not sure that at that time we had enough Special Ops for backups.

And then there's this "bottom line":

“This mission required a lot of things we had never done before,” said retired Col. (then-Capt.) Bob Brenci, the lead C-130 pilot on the mission. “We were literally making it up as we went along.”

Flying using night-vision goggles was almost unheard of. There was no capability, or for that matter, a need, to refuel helicopters at remote, inaccessible landing zones. All these skills and procedures would be tested and honed for this mission.

“These capabilities are routine now for special operators, but at the time we were right there on the edge of the envelope,” said retired Col. (then-Capt.) George Ferkes, Brenci’s co-pilot.

So, do we castigate them for trying to do something that had never been tried, with untested equipment, something on "the edge of the envelope" for the time?

I'd rather salute them for trying and doing there best under near impossible circumstances.

[AKIron]

You know what they say Toad, one oh sh** wipes out ten attaboys.

I've never really felt too critical towards the military for their failure in this (I was in the AF at time afterall). But I have always been sore that Carter wasn't effective in dealing with Iran. A big reason why I voted for Reagan over him.

[Toad]

Yeah, I was in then as well.

IIRC, this thing was planned with a lot of political restrictions as well.

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by Steve
This is exclusive of wartime.  Traditionally, such criticism was curtailed during wartime.   Of course, the dems are now such slime, the kind you find under a pile of dog crap that has been in the yard for a long time, that nothing is out of bounds for them.

No one knows better than steve what slime lies underneath dog crap. it's practically his mailing address...

[-MZ-]

Originally posted by Toad
Really. Pray tell how you decided that it was the military that screwed it up?

First, tell me what a cakewalk it should have been, flying into a hostile country without being discovered, refueling at an unimproved piece of desert..... you know, tell me how YOU would have done it successfully under the same circumstances and political restrictions.

What political restrictions?  That every single armed service had to get its own little piece of the action?  The interservice rivalry caused so many problems for this mission that Congress ended up reorganizing the whole JCS.

The Isrealis told them to bring in 40 choppers, American generals said, no we only need 8.  They couldn't get the right weather report, they hadn't practiced in the right conditions, etc.

Everyone knew it would be a tough mission.  Carter only authorized it, he didn't dictate the operation.    

Maybe he just should have made a deal with the Ayatollah like Reagan did later.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by -MZ-
Maybe he just should have made a deal with the Ayatollah like Reagan did later.

I would have preferred a show of force. Maybe even a nuke "test" near Tehran. I bet they couldn't have given up the hotages quick enough after seeing a few square miles of sand turned into glass.



Oh yeah, forgot that Amy told her Dad that nukes were bad.

[Toad]

IIRC the size/number of forces restrictions came from the political side.