P-38 Still has Problems

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by TheManx
The 38 is one of the most gentle stalling planes in the game, and one of the hardest to get to do that.

Stalls and auto-flap retracting spins are two entirely different things.  As Delirium said, hope you've got some air between you and the ground if you're ever thrown into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retractings.


ack-ack

[killnu]

and who said alt doesnt equal life?    

seriously though, i almost never (want to say never, but...) have had a problem with flaps autoretracting and causing a spin, wonder if it has anything to do with the fact i fly with combat trim on all the time?  any ideas, because i do not remember last spin do to flaps autoretracting on me.
~S~

[Murdr]

AKAK, getting back to your observations on accellerated stall, and its possible relation to the remaining snappyness.  Check out Hanger Flying Issue 2 Lockheeds P38 Newsletter.  It says they have no tendancy to fall off on either wing at any altitude in an accellerated stall.  The newsletters contents were compiled by Lockheeds test pilots.

[killnu]

thats a cool little site there murdr.
~S~

[Crumpp]

High speed fighters today have a high wing loading and we all know that this increases the turning radius. This condition has been improved in the 38 by the use of Maneuvering or Combat Flaps. There is a Maneuvering Flap stop on the flap controls which extends the flaps fifty percent. These should not be extended at speeds in excess of 250 MPH. There is danger of structural failure if this limitation is disregarded.
 
Ray Meskimen* says: "MANEUVERING FLAPS SHOULD BE EXTENDED ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO COMPLE PARTICULAR MANEUVER AND THE BE RETRACED IMMEDIATELY"

Don't be caught with your flaps down for any length of time in combat; the reason being that with maneuvering flaps down you can unknowingly get down to such low speeds that all the power in the world won't do you much good should you need sudden acceleration.

In combat, use the 38's superior speed and climb ability to keep on top of the enemy. You all know that the 38's rate of climb is approximately the same from 140 MPH to 180 MPH. This range relieves you of keeping your eyes glued to the air speed indicator when you're trying to get up there the fastest; and the maximum of 180 MPH gives you the dual advantage of not only getting upstairs faster, but also covering more distance in the same time than your enemy whose best climbing speed may be 145 or150 MPH
==============================================
All these quotes come right out of Murdr's site.

The P38 was not a turnfighter, was an energy fighter.  Read the book "Fork Tailed Devil".  Good read about the Lightening.  It was a fighter ahead of it's time in many ways but it's not the "end all fighter".
 
Popping any flap should leave a plane low and slow quickly unless it's power to weight ratio is such that it can overcome the drag.  Very few WWII planes are in this catagory.

Crumpp

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Crumpp


The P38 was not a turnfighter, was an energy fighter.  Read the book "Fork Tailed Devil".  Good read about the Lightening.  It was a fighter ahead of it's time in many ways but it's not the "end all fighter".
 
Popping any flap should leave a plane low and slow quickly unless it's power to weight ratio is such that it can overcome the drag.  Very few WWII planes are in this catagory.

Crumpp

In the PTO where it was flown as both an E fighter and a turn fighter, the P-38 excelled.  If the P-38 wasn't a turn fighter, I suggest you read the AAR of the survivors of McGuire's last flight.  They sure were turning with some Franks and other Japanese planes.

The flaps on the P-38 made it possible for it to turn if it got caught in such a fight and it was possible for experienced P-38 pilots to turn that thing like it was a far more nimble fighter than it was.  Just look at the story of Lowell and the Spit duel where he was able to use a maneuver called the "cloverleaf" which let him use the superior stall characteristics and low/stall speed handling of the P-38 to defeat the Spitfire in a mock dogfight.



ack-ack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I suggest if you want the REAL story on the P-38 Lightning, you ignore Martin Caiden's "The Fork Tailed Devil" (a decent book, but rather long on opinions and short on facts) and instead read Warren Bodie's "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning". Bodie is a former Lockheed engineer (retired after about 30 years, worked for P-38 Lightning designer Clarence "Kelly" Johnson in the Skunk Works) with access to all the Lockheed data and the USAAC data. Bodie's book is a little disorganized, but it is full of facts.

[Crumpp]

Guess you didn't read the exerpts from the USAAF P38 magazine.

Guess the P38 didn't get withdrawn from the European Theater because the Luftwaffe single engine dayfighters could give it a rough time.

I've read Tommy Mcguires last fight.  He died stalling his P38 trying to get the nose around to save his wingman.  I wouldn't exactly say they were turnfighting.  More like forced to take action because they got bounced.

The P38 excelled in the Pacific because it was faster than the Japanese A/C and held the intitative in a fight.  In the European theater is was not faster nor as manuverable.

==============================================

RAF Enemy Test Flight evaluation-

Against the FW-190A3 vs P38F:  The P38F was flown by an experienced USAAF pilot and operationally equipped.

Level speed
FW-190 was superior in speed up to 22,000 feet were the two A/C were the same.
The FW190 is 15 mph faster from sea level to 8000 feet and 5-8 mph faster until 22,000

At 23,000 feet the P38 is 6-8 mph faster than the FW-190.

Climb
The FW-190 is superior in climb up to 20,000 feet.  The climb angle is the same but the FW190 climbs 20 mph faster.  Above 20,000 feet the P38 outclimbs the 190 with it's climb advantage increasing with altitude.  The FW190 is superior in zoom climb at all heights.  

Dive

The FW-190 was superior particularly in the intial stages.

Manuverability

The FW-190 is superior to the P38F particularly in the rolling plane.
The FW190 could easily outturn the P38 in speeds above 140 mph.  Once speed dropped below that the P38 gained the advantage.

Accelleration

The FW 190 was superior in all aspects.

Overall assesment:

If bounced by the FW 190 go into a diving turn.  If the 190 follows try and get as slow as possible and turn.

It was thought the P38F would stand a resonable chance of shooting an FW 190 down provided the P38 had an altitude advantage and surprise.

Crumpp

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Guess you didn't read the exerpts from the USAAF P38 magazine.

Guess the P38 didn't get withdrawn from the European Theater because the Luftwaffe single engine dayfighters could give it a rough time.

 

LOL!  I suggest you take Savage's advice and read Bodie's book on the P-38.  The P-38 was not withdrawn from the ETO because it was able to be out maneuvered by German aircraft.  The reasons it was removed had more to do with insufficient pilot training and some problems with early P-38 models and 8th AAF politics.  The other AAF units that flew the P-38L in the ETO/MTO until the end of the war did very well in them.

And as for McGuire's death, I suggest reading the AAR again or read the updated investigation report on Widewing's website. That's a very simplified and somewhat inaccurate description of his crash that you've detailed.

The simple fact is, the P-38 was an extremely maneuverable plane that was aided with the use of its flaps.  

Also read some of the stories of the P-38 pilots that went from the PTO to the ETO.  They were happy because they were finally able to fight planes that they could out maneuver and if you look at their records, pilots from the PTO that went to the ETO had a better kill ratio.  Preddy is an example of this.



ack-ack

[Crumpp]

Guess you totally missed the USAAF evaluation.

"Might Stand a Reasonable Chance of shooting an FW-190 down IF the P38 has an ALTITUDE advantage AND SURPRISE"


Yeah OK,

The USAAF could be honest to save it's pilots lives during WWII, Why can't you be?

Crumpp

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Guess you totally missed the USAAF evaluation.

"Might Stand a Reasonable Chance of shooting an FW-190 down IF the P38 has an ALTITUDE advantage AND SURPRISE"


Yeah OK,

The USAAF could be honest to save it's pilots lives during WWII, Why can't you be?

Crumpp

The 8th AF was totally DISHONEST about the P-38, take it from me, I have friends that were THERE in the P-38 in the 8th AF, and they know the TRUTH.
 
The P-38 maintain a 4-6:1 kill to loss ratio over the Luftwaffe EVERYWHERE but in the 8TH, now tell me, was it the plane or the people running the AF?

[Murdr]

Owch crumpp, I was with you on your first post, until you posted again, and pulled out that synopsis on McGuire's final engagment.  Compaired to its contemporaries during the span of its service, the P38 was not particularly the best at anything other than verticle manovers.  In its infantcy it was so much faster than previous designs, that engineers had to figure out and deal with problems not explored before.  
What it was, was utilitarian.  It was an E fighter, but better E fighter designs came along.  It was very much discouraged from being employed as a turn fighter, but it could in fact do it quite well when it was needed.  It was employed in CAS role.  It was employed as a night fighter.  It was employed as a medium level bombing platform.  It was employed as photo recon platform specifically because of its stability for the days photo technology.

Suggesting to this crowd to read XXXXX book on the P38 is probably not the prefered tactic, as they could probably bury you in the matierial they've already digested on the subject.

AKAK
That's a very simplified and somewhat inaccurate description of his crash that you've detailed.

That was an uncharacteristicly kind way you put that AKAK.

Oh, and thank you for citing the quote from lockheeds newsletter that supports my earlier argument.  It says "There is danger of structural failure if this limitation is disregarded."  Not they "will strucurally fail at 250.5MPH.

I have to stop now, because Im too busy chuckling over the fact that you report tips on flap usage and E managment to P38 fans as if it were news.

[Crumpp]

Let me add to my above post.

Any A/C should have it's performance envelope and unique characteristics modeled in a simulation.

IMO HTC does a pretty darn good job and when presented with varifiable facts implements changes when needed.

I agree with HTC's keeping AH from becoming an artificial "flap fest" other flight "sims" are at this time.  Try flying airquake - Fighter Ace III, IL2, or Warbirds if you want that.

Sounds like their might be a problem with True Airspeed being used as the ceiling instead of IAS.  If this is the case then I am sure it will be fixed.

I don't agree with modeling an A/C so that it assumes an artificial role in it's Air Force line up.  The P38 was NOT the premier USAAF fighter in it's lineup and if all the flight models are correct that should be reflected.

It was the premier USAAF in the Pacific but you have to remember the Pacific Theater was a secondary priority in WWII and got the leftovers after the European Theater recieved it's needs.  Consequently the P47 and P 51, which were much better suited for taking on the Luftwaffe, went to Europe with a few P38's sent initially because of their range.  The P38 was more than adequete for taking on the much slower Japanese fighters.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Yeah I reported it as news because it seems to be a P38 fan club whining that my plane is not as easy to shoot down other planes with as I want it to be.

No matter you want to SPECULATE about:

The fact stands the P38 was withdrawn from European Service because the UNITS that used it said it was being roughed up by the Luftwaffe.

This is backed up by verifiable flight test data from Air Services at war trying to find the best way to defeat their enemy.


Crumpp

[J_A_B]

Hilts, Ack-Ack, and Murdr have all chimed in since Crumpp posted that evaluation....

And none of them pointed out that the subject of the evaluation--the P-38F--bears little in common with the P-38L we have in AH.

Man, I never thought I'd see the day when I would be sticking up for that ugly, overweight, overpriced, funny-sounding, elephantine jalopy those guys call a "fighter"    

J_A_B