A View from the Eye of the Storm

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by NUKE
I feel like a dirty girl.I'm off to listen to some CCR and change my panties.

Now you're talkin! woohoo!

[Toad]

I see. "Regime Change" wouldn't be reform. Gotcha.

You're arguing semantics

[Nash]

Nash: "You merely encouraged leaders who kept their populations ignorant."

Toad: "That, however, would never qualify as a chain of evidence."

Is this the Gore/China defense I've heard so much about?

"Note that he did NOT say to "bite the hand that feeds you immediately." - Toad

Ohhh okay. I didn't didn't read the nuanced version of his speech. "Do it - but not immediately....." Ahh. So uh, when?


In fact, an open-minded person could say that the pressure on the Saudis to reform by the US is a necssary first step in the attempt

Yeah, it's real great, this so-called "pressure". Good stuff. Keep atter boys and we'll all be home by December.

[Nash]

Originally posted by Toad
I see. "Regime Change" wouldn't be reform. Gotcha.

You're arguing semantics

Toad?

George Bush saying to the Saudi government "We'd like you make some reforms in the areas of women's rights and education" is a whole lot different than saying to the Saudi government "We'd like you to leave."

Reform and Regime change are so totally different. What are you talking about?

[Toad]

C'mon Nash. I've encourages sports stars in football games that turned out to be wife beaters. There's no link.. no chain of evidence that I had anything to do with the wife beating.

Immediately seems to be what you want here. It's clear that the US is "doing something" but that's not enough for you.

So what do you want? C'mon, you seem to sit in judgement and declare our efforst insufficient. Shows us your wisdom.. what should we do? Immediately make the Saudi government our enemy? What?

Shine the light of your wisdom here.

[Toad]

What am I talking about?

I saying it's obvious to anyone that reads on the issue that the US IS trying to get the Saudis to reform. The professor, the Saudi Council of Ministers.. they see it. But not you.

[Nash]

I don't get you...

You make a post with a speech about basically declaring all out war with the middle east, then you wind up saying that it's a damn good thing that they propose furthering women's rights and education, because hell... it's a good first step isn't it?

Read what he said again:

"In order to win:

1) it is necessary to first eliminate the terrorist regimes, so that no Government in the world will serve as a safe haven for these people...

2) is also necessary to dry the financial resources of the terror conglomerate.

3) It is crucial to stop Saudi and other financial support of the outer circle, which is the fertile breeding ground of terror.

4) It is important to monitor all donations from the Western World to Islamic organizations (etc.)

5) It is also important to act decisively against the campaign of lies and fabrications and to monitor those Western media who collaborate with it out of naivety, financial interests or ignorance.... "

A little bit different than what's in "The Middle East PMNBFHKHGF Initiative". And a bit more, uh, progressive than women's rights and education reform.

[Toad]

Which was all in reply to the standard old tired line about the US being the problem because we're not trying to reform the Saudis.

Look.... we're trying to reform the Saudis. So the multitude of posts in that vein are just more smoke from you and six.

Now, you want to talk about what the guy actually wrote? Good.

Because "the US isn't trying to reform the Saudis and that's the real problem" is pretty well discredited as and argument and worn out anyway.

[Nash]

Originally posted by Toad
Show us your wisdom.. what should we do? Immediately make the Saudi government our enemy? What?

Shine the light of your wisdom here.

ARE you IN a WAR or ARE you NOT?

[Toad]

Yeah, we are. The rest of the world isn't in it yet though.

And that is one of the points worth discussing in this guy's speech. Will it happen? Is it inevitable?

And before you go where I suspect you're going, in war you very often have allies that aren't necessarily your friends.

Don't EVEN try to make the case that the Saudi government is not helping us more than hurting us right now, because it won't fly.

They are finally having to seriously engage the A/Q's. Sort of hard to make the case that they're "haboring terrorists" when they're killing them as best they can.

I also think that they've put themselves in a position where they will have to begin "reforming" the government. I think they're smart enough to see that they've got a real problem with their populace.

But go ahead anyway. I'm sure you will.

Over to you... I'll check it tomorrow.

[Nash]

Originally posted by Toad
But go ahead anyway. I'm sure you will.

Over to you... I'll check it tomorrow.

Nah... going to bed too. Tomorrow I'll get right on it.

[Yeager]

let me say this nash.  You talk so much about the US as "you" and "your" never "us" and "we"...... but I can guaran****ingtee you that if the "you" and the "your" you so freely babble about and are openly critical of ever ceases to exist then it will be "your" royal maple leaf bellybutton that is next in line buddy so you had better think hard about separating from your brother.

Ill hold back on giving you the finger but it is erect and ready to penetrate

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Toad
Don't EVEN try to make the case that the Saudi government is not helping us more than hurting us right now, because it won't fly.

Secretly sending money to al-qeada, rebuffing our oil contracts, signing those contracts with China instead, squashing human rights, threatening to go to the euro(which may become more than a threat).

Now how are they helping us?

They are more of a friend than an enemy, sorry, but that won't fly. You can sell that somewhere else, cause I'm not buying it.

BTW, read the thread "frightening email", it explains how the saudis view the rest of the world, and what they believe. Sure, they buddy up to us, until they can get along without us.

[ravells]

Originally posted by Yeager
let me say this nash.  You talk so much about the US as "you" and "your" never "us" and "we"...... but I can guaran****ingtee you that if the "you" and the "your" you so freely babble about and are openly critical of ever ceases to exist then it will be "your" royal maple leaf bellybutton that is next in line buddy so you had better think hard about separating from your brother.

Ill hold back on giving you the finger but it is erect and ready to penetrate

I'm trying very hard not to think of Yeager's errect finger penetrating Nash's royal maple leaf ass.

ack!

Ravs

[Toad]

First, if you can show the Saudi Government itself is supporting Al-Q, please do so. Also show us how their killing of the Al-Q operatives in the last few days is "suppport".

Rebuffing oil contracts? Have you noticed the price of gasoline lately? Did you notice the market reaction when Saudi Arabia vowed to pump more oil with the aim of lowering crude oil prices from record highs? At this stage of the US economic recovery and world economic expansion I don't think that's working against us.

Signing contracts with China? Are you talking about the gas development contracts with China Petroleum & Chemical Corp., Russia's OAO Lukoil, Italy's Eni SpA and Spain's Repsol YPF SA?

If so, it wasn't just China. Do you know the details? Did US companies make competitive or lower bids and still lose the contract?

Or is this the Saudi way of saying they don't appreciate US pressure to reform... you know, the pressure you say doesn't exist?

Human Rights?

Human rights organization approved along with minor reforms

11 March, 2004

Collaborating with other international humanitarian human rights groups, the new Saudi organization will work together with the government to investigate and report on human rights violations, giving constant suggestions for how the country can foster a pro-human rights culture among its citizen body. Chairman Ubaid said he has met with Saudi Prince Abdallah and received a letter from King Fahd wishing him success on the venture.    

Not much there, but it's a step in the right direction. And as that old dead guy said, "The longest journey starts with a single
step".

Wait, let me guess, that's not fast enough for you. We should threaten the Saudis with a good nuking unless they speed up reform, right?

Threatening to go to the Euro? So you think they should ignore intelligent financial management of their country, ignore doing what they think is best for the sake of what? Our friendship? If the Euro is a better investment, what would YOU do?

Or is this their response to US pressure to reform their system that you say doesn't exist?

You're thinking an unverified, untraceable E-Mail is a reliable source document? No comment, that says it all.

How are they helping us?

1. They are certainly helping our economy (although it may be short term) by lowering world oil prices.

2. They finally seem to be going after the A-Q operation in their country. I riskily assume they are doing much more with us behind the scenes to help track down and neutralize the A-Q organization and supporters.

3. They are taking the first baby steps in reform. That's not reallya specific help to us, but it's an improvement that will help in the long run.