BF-109 rant

[2 bucks]

After 1943 the 109 was said to be obsolete.  This may be true, I have no way of knowing.
However, when it comes to what strengths are needed in real life air combat didn't it have more than what it takes to be wildly succesful right up to the bitter end?  It's tough to judge a plane when it's being flown by 17 year old boys who are inexperienced, undertrained and in a hopeless 1944/1945 situation.  

When flown by experienced pilots it racked up tremendous kills on any opponent it faced on the western front.  In fact a simple comparison of both sides might be in order if anyone has the actual numbers.  Whatever the exact figures are they'll show that while flying the 109 the best aces of the Luftwaffe outkilled the best aces of the USAF/RAF right up the bitter end even as the Third Reich collapsed around them.  That says a lot about the real world strengths of this aircraft.  

My point?  Either the 109 is undermodeled (I don't think so) or every other plane in WB and AH is overmodeled to make them appear superior.  When compared to similar aircraft the 109 is no Brewster Buffalo.  It should be a formidable killing machine.

[-duma-]

I don't understand your point. Where's the evidence that the 109 is undermodelled?

[Pongo]

2 Bucks.
I dont know anything about flight models.
I would contest your point however. Historically the best pilots of the LW where decimated by late 44. Many had been shot down several times on the western front but often where able to return to combat as they were flying over their own territory for years.
The very best and luckiest pilots where effective in it to the very end. That is the case here as well. There are pilots that are very effective in the 109 in AH. I am not one of them but I wouldnt have been in 1944 either.
Apologists for the 109 like to point out the drastic war situation and intercept mission as the reason for the poor performance. HTC doesnt have the luxury of what ifing. They have taken the numbers for the plane and balanced them against the records of its flight tests. The 109 series had some glaring weaknesses. And some real strengths as well. The AH 109 is the same. The issue is that the Allied aircraft (spit and 38) in particular do not have glaring weaknesses. They are much better balanced designs, They are much eisier to fly, but an experten can still win very consitanly by taking advantage of those spikes of capability in the 109.
The FW has the same foibles to a lesser extent.
If you have some concrete numbers that can boost the 109 models in some way, I am positive that HTC will respond, they have done so often in the past.
 

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[funked]

2 Bucks, check out the kill stats on the 109's in the arena.

Also, it was a 1935 airplane.  Arguably it was obsolete in 1940, when it had its bellybutton handed to it by the Spitfire.

All those big Luftwaffe kill figures?  Pilot skill.  Learn to fly like those guys and you should have no problem.  

[Kieren]

2 Bucks-

The one thing missing from the formula is combat experience acquired from the Spanish Civil war to the end of hostilities in 1945. Hartmann would have killed 109's in a Spitfire as easily as vice-versa. The LW didn't rotate pilots back to home to help train replacements, so they spent far longer on the Front than did Allied pilots. How many sorties did Hartmann fly before his first kill? 90+? American pilots rotated home before then. This renders comparisons moot.

I am of the belief that a very good pilot can kill in anything (so long as there isn't too great a disparity in performance).

I've flown 109's long enough to know that, like the mustang, I can usually decide when the fight starts/ends. I am no expert on the same level as Hristo, Aper, DoctorYo, et al. I just have put some time in and feel the 109's are as adequately modeled as any fighter in the game. There are situations you get yourself into, and situations you don't.  

The final reality is the 109 saw a decade of service by war's end, and it was opposed by much newer (and frankly, more advanced) fighters. The LW still had many accomplished pilots, and they continued to score, but to call it "wildly successful" is hyperbole.  

[[Sg]ShotGun]

'ass handed to it by the spitfire'  funked???

in the BoB most fighter v fighter encounters the victor had LW markings. bad tactics and the wrong AC for the job had much to do with the loses of the LW to the RAF as did the performance differences of ea AC...

[This message has been edited by [Sg]ShotGun (edited 03-11-2000).]

[funked]

Hehehe ShotGun I will defer to Gen. Galland's comments.    

Seriously, as an engineer, it's pretty obvious that the 109 was not up to snuff after 1940 or 1941.  Opposing aircraft could do everything as well, and do a few things better.  It's a tribute to the tactics, training, and skill of the Luftwaffe Aces that they were able to get so many kills.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-11-2000).]

[jmccaul]

I think it's fair to say you simply cannot deduce an aircraft is undermodelled due to it's arena performance Vs real life performance.

It will be intresting to see how each aircraft performs in carefully historical scenarios Vs real life (intresting but still not evidence for correct/incorrect modelling)

[danish]

vv that jmccaul.
The 109 has allways performed much better in scenarios than in MA in WB - a game that carries basically the same "FM perception" as AH.That goes even for the G6, the black sheep of the family - but more so in WB thank god!

Now lets talk about the D9.....;=)

danish

[Fishu]

Theres one fact that is true, 109's are not properly modelled in AH.
There are few things missing from 109's.
(though, theres one thing more, rudder trim, which early 109's surely didnt have, i dont know about later models)

[funked]

Good point about the scenarios Danish.  I have noticed that myself.  For instance in the "Pointblank" scenario I felt completely invincible in the Me 109G-6.  But flying it in the Main Arena was a scary experience!  Also IMHO Spitfire Mk Vb vs. Fw 190A-4 was a good match in the WB Main Arena.  But in the "Cry Wulf" S3, it was a slaughter in favor of the Fw 190A-4.

[Duckwing6]

I gotta say that the 109 in AH is one of the most dangerous A/C in the arena .. but nobody said it was easy to fly...

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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew

[gatt]

Duck, I agree.

I've been flying 109's and 190's in WB for 3 years. Even if I'm an average pilot, I really can say: AcesHigh 109's have a steeper learning curve than those in WB

Yesterday our squad did a R.A.W. mission in WarBirds. We all took 109F-4 to escort buffs. After 3 weeks away from WB I was often thinking: "heck, if I did this one in AH I'd stall/spin/auger for sure!"
And no, I'm not here to blame WB, I still like it. His S3, WW and SL are still the best things I have done online.

2 bucks, the only thing I can say is: practice, practice, practice. Become one with your Messie.

P.S.: the 109G-2 is an awesome machine, practice your gunnery and try it.

[Kats]

2 bucks,

What your observation suggests is that pilot's rarely flew their aircraft to their limits and eventhough your aircraft might be inferior to a certain degree - it wouldn't matter that much.

So then the question is, why didn't pilots fly their aircraft to thier performance limits?

My guesses are:

1. Pilot skill
2. Fatigue
3. Pilot workload (IE how difficult or easy it was to fly your aircraft to reach it's maximum performance)

Now add to the fact that ww2 air combat was not really swirling twirling dogfights, but rather a fight for position (advantage) - you then can throw any performance advantages out the window giving the edge to whoever has the better position. Remember, something like 90% of the kills claimed - the victim was completely unaware.

So basically any plane with decent performance and guns could be used very effectively.

[Westy]

 All of the Axis' highest scoring Aces WERE shot down. Many several times as a matter of fact. From 1943 on they were shot down over "friendly" territory and most having lived they got to climb back into the cockpit of another aircraft.
 Allied pilots on the other hand were rotated out after xxx missions but in the case of many of the hottes Allied fighter pilots they were sent to the ack-ack slaughter house straffing airfields.
 Based on kills per mission/flight the Allies had just as many hotshit pilots as the Axis.
 
 The 109 is not under modelled 2bucks. I kind of enjoy the ride personally. It's just that HTC is unable to turn *you* into a Rall, Hauptman, Galland or Marseille.

 Capiche?

-Westy