Gunnery

[Vila]

Ok, I dint say anything till now, casue we were in Beta, but now that we're going PAY....

Well, the long range gunnery issue is outta hand.  Buffs getting kills at 1.2 K, and toaday I got critically damaged by a Stang at 850 yards  .

Whjat's up with this?  seems a bit silly fro an otherwise great sim!

Vila

[Yeager]

I find myself in overall support of your observations on this issue.

In my experience, I have little luck making hits *fighter vs fighter* much passed 650 and when I do get hits beyond that range it usually doesnt result in a kill.

When I am in the tail guns position in the B26, I find that many fighters, attacking from dead astern, begin firing out at 1100 and do indeed get some hits at that extreme distance in low speed closure attacks.  I usually start firing at 1000 unless the con fires beyond that range in which case I return fire in hopes of spoiling the shot.

In summary, I find everything in *fair* order with the lethality envelope perhaps over-extended by 10-15%.  Most of my fighter vs fighter kills occur between 350 and 450
and tail gunner position kills perhaps (and Im going by recalled memory here) out to 450-550.

Yeager  

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 01-31-2000).]

[Sharky]

Vila,

Yeah sorry about that but when you were heading toward reinforcements I had to do something.  Normally I wouldn't have fired till I closed the range because well it just seems so dweeb-like even though it works (although it shouldn't).  

If it makes ya feel any better, after I got you in the break, your buddies dived in on me.  I broke hard into them, unloaded the stick an ran like hell.  Everyone of them started opening up on me and not a one was any closer than 850 yds.  To top it off the B-26 that was with them joins in and shoots off my left aileron and a flap at 1200yds!!  I got away but I got all shot up by planes that were never any closer than 850 yds.

I've had several guys in the arena ask me what convergence I use and when I tell em 250-300 yds, they can't believe it and tell me they set theirs at 600-800 yds!!

Anyway sorry for the dweeb shot, but it was my only chance before you got to reinforcements.  Please HT and company fix this soon!

Sharky

P.S.  HT why did you get ride of the anti-stick stirring routine?  That was on of the best anti-dweeb features in the game!

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You can run, but you just die tired.

[lakc]

Dont apologise for killing Villa, heck, smile and know you earned it.  

Smoked 3 engines on a B-17 from 600 yards with a -1C the other day, did think that it was rather excessive. But with convergence set just short of that range, I was wondering if the ballistics were just more accurate?

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Lake City
-lakc-

[Rocket]

My understanding from Pyro and HT is that the guns are modeled to real life ballistics exactly.  But consider that in here opposed to real life we have more sorties and kills than all the WWII vets combined.  Hence better gunnery in general.  Just IMHO.  

Rocket

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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de

[juzz]

Err, that theory is BS. If I took a rifle and tried to hit a plane-sized target 1000 yards away I very much doubt I would be able to. But in AH I can easily hit enemy fighters at 1500 yards from the tail gun of a bomber, or even in a fighter(with a 250-300 yard convergence) at 1000+, if they aren't manoeuvering.

Maybe if they get rid of the range on icons, then we might see more realistic gunnery results.

[Toad]

I'd like to ask those that think:

1. Six .50's wouldn't rip up an aluminum airplane at 1000 yards

or

2. That it's impossible to hit an airplane at 1000 yards

Upon what experience(s)do you base your comments?

I am not saying that it is or is not possible, I'm simply asking how you arrive at these conclusions.

[Maniac]

Agree with Vila.

If the gunnery is indeed correct as it is, something gotta be done to make it harder to aim. . . for example get rid of the range counters. . .

// -nr-1-

[Jekyll]

OUCH!  I remember raising the issue of long range gunnery about 2 months ago.

From the flaming responses I received I consider myself lucky to have escaped with my life!

But yep Vila, you're absolutely right.  I'm generally shooting from about 450 yds on a hard maneuvering target, and have no trouble getting solid hits at that range.  Makes it kinda pointless going for the Hartmann solution when you can sit well back behind your target and tear him to shreds.

It's either the gunnery or the icons... one or the other has to be changed.  If you force the guys to get in close to get the kill, you open up the whole spectrum of defensive tactics designed to force the overshoot.  But at the moment, unless the enemy pilot is coming in with heaps of smash, its just too easy to sit half a kilometre back of your target and shoot him down.

For those who think long range gunnery is OK, go to your nearest golf course.  Stand on the tee of a straight par 5... start jogging on the spot and tell me you would have no trouble machine gunning a 39' wingspan aircraft sitting on the green.


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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[leonid]

Maniac said:  

. . . for example get rid of the range counters. . .

Interesting thought.  If we had no indication of range other than plane size, it would be a whole new ball game.

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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA

[Saintaw]

I say, lets get rid of the Icons all the way, just leave a coloured dot saying if it's nits, rook or bish...or just a green/red dot...

{Saintaw, hides, ducks and runs before heavy-metal plonking starts..."chaff","flares"...}  

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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[Ripsnort]

I spoke with a ball turret gunner awhile back at Boeing Field when they unveiled the restored B-17F Flying Bee, and at that time, folks were getting D10 shots (1000 yds) in Warbirds, I asked him if this was possible, he said it was possible, but the odds were extremely high of hitting anything, let alone doing any major damage at that distance.

Just reporting from one of the horses mouths.

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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[lasse]

Here this other day I was rtb after a long flight, while I was RTBing I engaged a P51, I flew that Japanese plane, dont recall the name.

I got on his 6 and he (clever as he is) tried to out run me, I was real low on ammo now, counters was on 4 and 6 and I had vis of my homefield.
So I just trowed my last 10 bullets or so after him, he was now (on my FE) D11, I saw 2 flashes and he went BOOM.

This unlucky P51 Pilot was Maniac (If I remember right), he contacted me on channel 1, On his FE I was at D12, about the same as my FE said.
Still I blew up his pony with 2 pings at D11.5, I think there is something wrong here, I dont know what , but something it is .

 

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The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-

[pzvg]

Guys sorry but this ain't golf,
The .05 has a max effective range of about 2200 meters as for hitting an aircraft sized target at 1000 yards, well I have hit man-sized targets at that range with 7.62mm
so I think that isn't the issue. Historically
pilots did not shoot from that far out simply because an airplane is not a stable platform, if you modeled wind,turbulence,and
relative Humidity into the game, (Not really soon, it'd take a Cray) then you would see people closing because the odds of scoring a hit beyond 500 yards would be incredible, with the game engine currently only factoring the ballistic properties of the round, the max stated range is the range you can engage from.
My .02 on it

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Maniac]

Yup sure as hell was me lasse, and it was not the first time it happened to me, ive been killed from around d10 several times.

I usually do not fire untill d3 but once in anwhile i have djust "thrown some bullets" at an con to make him turn at d9 and got kills. . .

I will say this again, sure the gunnery may be realistic modelled but with the gunnery aids we have dont make it very realistic nor fun. . .

// -nr-1-