Gunnery

[Lephturn]

I agree Vila.

I think the ballistics are correctly modeled, but the lack of some other factors make it too easy to nail somebody from far away.  Without modelling a bunch of other inputs, the only solution I can see is to increase the dispersion effects or throw in a bit of randomness of some kind.  Some random factor that increases in effect with range would have the desired effect on the gunnery model I believe.  Heck, turning up the dispersion effect might just do the trick.

I'd love to see HTC try it so we could see the effect.  If it doesn't work... oh well.  But if it does... it removes the only fault of any consequence I see with AH right now as far as "modelling" goes.  (I put modelling in quotes because the gunnery model is likely very correct.  We need the adjustment for play balance reasons, but this is still percieved as a "modelling" issue to most I think.)

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-01-2000).]

[BaneX]

I agree with lephturn there.. the ballistics are correct as far as I can tell cause to my understanding the .50mg has an extremely long range. Add the random affect that he mentions and also, get rid of the range markers and I think things will get much better.

baneX
=357th Pony Express=

[Dingy]

 

If I took a rifle and tried to hit a plane-sized target 1000 yards away I very much doubt I would be able to.

Really??  I've seen pilots online wasting hundreds of rounds to get a couple pings on me from 800 yards away.  Give me a rifle and allow me to fire 300 times and I can guarantee you I would hit it a few times at 1000 yards.  The issue is not whether the hit probability is correct, its damage modeling.

-Ding

[Toad]

I'm still curious, so I'll repeat:

I'd like to ask those that think:
1. Six .50's wouldn't rip up an aluminum airplane at 1000 yards

or

2. That it's impossible to hit an airplane at 1000 yards

Upon what experience(s) do you base your comments?

Have you fired heavy machine guns in the military? Enough to be proficient (not just a quick  familiarity shoot).

If no machine-gunning, have you at least fired several thousand rounds of centerfire rifle rounds to be familiar with ballistics and range?

Or have you just "played a lot of flight sims"    

Inquiring minds want to know; how else can we evaluate your opinions? Maybe you know something we don't!

>For those who think long range gunnery is OK, go to your nearest golf course. Stand on the tee of a straight par 5... start jogging on the spot and tell me you would have no trouble machine gunning a 39' wingspan aircraft sitting on the green.<

Jekyll, I'm very curious with respect to the "jogging on the spot" part of this. What does that have to do with aerial gunnery?

Are you implying that either the target aircraft or the shooting aircraft are some how bouncing up and down, similar to a rifleman trying to shoot while jogging?



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-01-2000).]

[Toad]

....and here are a few places that you can do online calculations of the ballistics on the various projectiles available in Aces High....

This is one of the good ones, IMHO:
 http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/

That's IF you have the correct information to start with. You'll have to know a few facts about the round in question before you can calculate its ballistic performance.

Another site offers a ballistics calculator as well, but the calculator is down right now. It does offer a nice "quick and dirty" guide to understanding ballistics.

Try:
 

I've no axe to grind either way about the AH ballistics.

What is starting to bug me is people whining without providing any FACTUAL INFORMATION on why they think AH is wrong.

"I think" is fine and I'm willing to read your opinion.

But until there is something to BACK UP your opinion, I don't see why HTC would be rushing to change anything.


 

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-01-2000).]

[BigJim]

Heheh well I have fired an M-60 alot and I can tell you that at 1K yards I wouldn't hit much, and if you put me on a moving platform that jumped up and down and sideways abit I would hit even less.  Aerial gunnery is NOT a bench rest enviroment so more than just the stats of balistics come into play here I think that just a toneing down of the effectiveness at range would work wonders, without much programming???? I am not a programmer so I hate say it wouldn't take much work since I have no idea.

[Toad]

Hiya Jim!

Well, that's more like it! Now I've got a frame of reference.

I assume that since the M60 is an LMG you were shooting at mainly man-sized stuff?

So, when you say you can't hit anything a 1K yards does that mean...

you couldn't hit a coyote

you couldn't hit a man

you couldn't hit a '64 coupe de ville

you couldn't hit a school bus

you couldn't hit a locomotive

or you couldn't even hit the Empire State building?

 

There is indeed more to it than ballistics but that's where you have to start. You don't want a .50 that shoots only 100' and you don't want one that shoots 100 miles...the ballistics model is the mandatory beginning.

I haven't shot any heavy machine guns but I have spent a lot of time in the air. I think there's a little misconception on how much aircraft "bounce around".

This is a famous "it depends" situation.

It does depend on a lot of things. Some situations, the aircraft is so smooth it's like being at a benchrest. In others it's like being in paint shaker!

It depends....  

[BaneX]

I myself have shot a vehicle mounted .50cal machine gun in the army quite extensively and hitting a truck sized target at 1000yds for me isn't too difficult even while moving, but not having been in the air and trying to do the same I wouldn't know if the plane moves more or not.

Now after looking at things I have shot with said machine gun.. there was some damage, but nothing that would lead me to believe it would be destroyed. If presonnel had been in this vehicle they would very much have been dead.

baneX
=357th Pony Express=
"Need a package delivered? Call the Pony Express"

[Ripsnort]

I shot an Elk once from 300 yards,with iron sights,  right through the heart, does that count?    Heard the "THUP" from all the way across the valley, the bull took 2 steps but he didn't realize that he was dead, and food on my table.

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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-01-2000).]

[Mighty1]

Well 1 time when I was playing Quake2 I shot my rocket from ...oh..uh..never mind.

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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals

"Come try to club THIS Seal"

[BigJim]

Hiya Toad,

Well based on my AH gunnery I couldn't hit the Empire State Building LOL.  But on a serious note, the recoil on an M-60 for a 2 sec burst will cause you to reacquire your target after said burst, now if target is moving and attempting NOT to be hit it gets even tricker <grin>.  Now I never fired at a truck sized target (triple canopy jungle doesn't afford many truck size targets) and mostly fired in a direction (usually for as short a time as possible, while looking for holes to crawl into) sooo in answer to your question I guess you are right it all depends ???

[Yeager]

Hell fellas, even a puny little 22LR round is lethal out to 1 and 1/3 miles  

Yeager

[funked]

It's simply too easy to hit and do damage at ranges near 1000 yds.  This is based purely on reading hundreds and hundreds of first-person accounts of kills by WW2 pilots.

[Toad]

Funked

So there's three possibilities right?

Either it's too easy to hit at 1000 yards..or

hits do too much damage at a 1000 yards..or

Both.

Again, it may not be the gunnery model at all..might be damage right?

[MiG Eater]

 

Originally posted by Vila:
Ok, I dint say anything till now, casue we were in Beta, but now that we're going PAY....

Well, the long range gunnery issue is outta hand.  Buffs getting kills at 1.2 K, and toaday I got critically damaged by a Stang at 850 yards   .

Whjat's up with this?  seems a bit silly fro an otherwise great sim!

Vila

This is a very low percentage shot so its likely a LOT of ammo was expended to get a few hits.  Still, it only takes one hit to wound/kill a pilot, shoot out a coolant line or cut a control cable even at long range.  A pilot 4 hours from home with a limited ammo load would not be likely to try this shot.  Here in AH, no one is more than a few minutes to the nearest base and a fresh ammo load so we're all a lot more likely to hose away attempting to get a few hits.

Regarding long range damage: Most strafing in WW2 was started from well outside effective range.  The .50's were used regularly on ground targets at ranges of a half mile or more.  Judging from the gun camera films widely available on video, hits at these ranges were quite effective.  Not many of the trains, ships and trucks were made of the soft aluminum (aluminium for our non-US viewers) that makes up our airplanes yet the damage caused by half inch AP shells could be extreme.  

MiG