Author Topic: Christians can sure be jerks  (Read 3654 times)

Offline Ozark

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Christians can sure be jerks
« Reply #180 on: August 02, 2004, 10:24:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Yeah...Intolerance really ticks me off.

Especially when rebuilding an engine!









:p  <<< I hate this little guy too!

Offline phookat

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« Reply #181 on: August 02, 2004, 10:25:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
If one is Christianity, there is indeed a way one can know he made the right decision. This is the "mystical" side of Christianity. It's called "The Holy Spirit" and it's mentioned quite frequently in Christian writings. Christianity involves a personal relationship with God. It's somewhat unique in that.


OK, now I think we are *finally* getting to the crux of the matter.  It is not just a matter of faith and conviction, then, as you mentioned earlier.

My scenario is incorrect in that I have left out the fact that he will mystically know to the core of his being that he has chosen the right path, because he feels a personal relationship with god.  Is that correct?

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #182 on: August 02, 2004, 10:43:00 PM »
The Christian is convicted in his heart by the Holy Spirit and feels a personal relationship with God through his Son, Jesus Christ, correct.

The second choice, whatever it is, doesn't have that option.

Offline phookat

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« Reply #183 on: August 02, 2004, 10:52:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
The second choice, whatever it is, doesn't have that option.


Why not?  A personal relationship with God is very definitely a part of other faiths.  Hinduism is one I know of, for example.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2004, 11:01:25 PM »
You know of? Go on. :D

Offline phookat

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« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2004, 11:05:45 PM »
That'll do to start with. ;)

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #186 on: August 02, 2004, 11:16:13 PM »
Ah, as I thought. You throw out "Hinduism" yet you weren't prepared to follow up.

I'll just save time and do a quick cut and paste here:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hinduism is generally regarded as the world's oldest organized religion.

Religions which recognize the existence of multiple deities have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant. Hinduism remains arguably one of the most tolerant of such religions. However, during the past few years, a Hindu nationalistic political party has controlled the government of India. The linkage of religion, the federal government and nationalism has led to a recent degeneration in the separation of church and state in India. This, in turn, has decreased the level of religious tolerance in that country. The escalation of anti-Christian violence is one manifestation of this linkage. *

Hindu beliefs and practices:
Categorizing the religion of Hinduism is somewhat confusing:

 Hinduism has commonly been viewed in the west as a polytheistic religion - one which worships multiple deities: gods and goddesses.  

 Some have viewed it as a monotheistic religion, because it recognizes only one supreme God: the panentheistic principle of Brahman, that all reality is a unity. The entire universe is seen as one divine entity who is simultaneously at one with the universe and who transcends it as well.  

 Some view Hinduism as Trinitarian because Brahman is simultaneously visualized as a triad:  Brahma the Creator who is continuing to create new realities

 Vishnu, (Krishna) the Preserver, who preserves these new creations. Whenever dharma (eternal order, righteousness, religion, law and duty) is threatened, Vishnu travels from heaven to earth in one of ten incarnations.

 Shiva, the Destroyer, is at times compassionate, erotic and destructive.
 
 Strictly speaking, Hinduism is a henotheistic religion -- a religion which recognizes a single deity, but which recognizes other gods and goddesses as facets or manifestations or aspects of that supreme God.

Most urban Hindus follow one of two major divisions within Hinduism:

 Vaishnavaism: which generally regards Vishnu as the ultimate deity

 Shivaism: which generally regards Shiva as the ultimate deity.

However, many rural Hindus worship their own village goddess or an earth goddess. She is believed to rule over fertility and disease -- and thus over life and death. The priesthood is less important in rural Hinduism: non-Brahmins and non-priests often carry out ritual and prayer there.

Hindus believe in the repetitious Transmigration of the Soul. This is the transfer of one's soul after death into another body. This produces a continuing cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth through their many lifetimes. It is called samsara. Karma is the accumulated sum of ones good and bad deeds. Karma determines how you will live your next life. Through pure acts, thoughts and devotion, one can be reborn at a higher level. Eventually, one can escape samsara and achieve enlightenment. Bad deeds can cause a person to be reborn as a lower level, or even as an animal. The unequal distribution of wealth, prestige, suffering are thus seen as natural consequences for one's previous acts, both in this life and in previous lives.

Hindus organize their lives around certain activities or "purusharthas." These are called the "four aims of Hinduism," or "the doctrine of the fourfold end of life." They are:  The three goals of the "pravritti," those who are in the world, are:   dharma: righteousness in their religious life. This is the most important of the three.

 artha: success in their economic life; material prosperity.

 kama: gratification of the senses; pleasure; sensual, sexual, and mental  enjoyment.
 
 The main goal for the "nivritti," those who renounce the world. is:  moksa: Liberation from "samsara," the  This is considered the supreme end of mankind.
 

Meditation is often practiced, with Yoga being the most common. Other activities include daily devotions, public rituals, and puja, a ceremonial dinner for a God.

*Hinduism has a deserved reputation of being highly tolerant of other religions. Hindus have a saying: "Ekam Sataha Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti," which may be translated: "The truth is One, but different Sages call it by Different Names"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism2.htm

Again, if Hinduism appeals to you, by all means. But no, it doesn't believe in a personal relationship with God just like Christianity does.

P.S. ... gonna let this one drift until Blammo's son is home safe.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2004, 12:06:58 AM by Arlo »

Offline phookat

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« Reply #187 on: August 03, 2004, 11:54:59 AM »
So-called "Bhakti Yoga" in Hinduism is the path of loving devotion to God, and God accepts your love and saves you.  That is a personal relationship to God.  I refer you to http://bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/chapter-12.html

Now, back to my scenario.  Here it is again, with your amendment Arlo.  Tell me if anything else is wrong.

There are two religions, A and B. Both claim to be the exclusively correct paths to God. Both have essentially the same moral codes, but one says "follow prophet 1" and the other says "follow prophet 2". In truth, only one of these religions is correct, and if you follow the other one you will not be saved.

Now someone wants to join a religion with the goal of being saved. There is no possible way he can "figure out" or reason a choice. He chooses one by "faith and conviction" as you said. He mystically knows to the core of his being that he has chosen the right path, because he feels a personal relationship with god.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #188 on: August 03, 2004, 01:12:09 PM »
"In chapter twelve Lord Krishna extols the glory of devotion to God. Along with this he explains the different forms of spiritual disciplines and discusses the qualities of the devotees who by performing their activities in this way become very dear to Him. Thus this chapter is entitled: The Path of Devotion."

Actual sanskrit translation:

"Knowledge is superior to practice, meditation is considered better than knowledge; renouncing the results of actions than meditation, verily by such renunciation comes tranquility."

Sorry, that is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, I'm sure you're anxious to prove your point, so let's continue.

Now, bearing in mind that you possibly want to prove that nobody can claim that their way is the right way without it involving a leap of faith (which I've stated already). And bearing in mind that one who does not choose Christianity may indeed have what can be called a deeply religious experience (not entirely unlike Christians ... but not identical, either), how will this exercise prove that you're right about all religions and beliefs being valid when it comes to the path to God? The only thing I see this leading to is faith and conviction, and I thought I covered that already (with an addendum that Christian conviction intimately involves the Holy Spirit). There are many who are convinced that their spiritual decision was the correct one who aren't Christians. That doesn't make it a true statement. That doesn't make it logic. That merely makes it a choice.

BTW ... though a slight tangent, this is still related. IF there was no other choice but Christianity (or any other religion or philosophy) there would be no use for faith. Between "no choice" and "no wrong choice" lays actual "choice." The first makes man out to be a robot, the second makes God out to be a fool, the third makes sense.

And that STILL leaves the heart, mind and soul of the decision process up to you. So, there you have it. There are right decisions and wrong decisions. Secularly and spiritually. It's up to us to determine the correct path.

Sorry .... you probably were going somewhere else with this. You were saying?

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #189 on: August 03, 2004, 01:20:22 PM »
When people stop believeing in God

     They begin to believe in anything.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2004, 02:33:36 PM »
God is dead, and no one cares.
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline oboe

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« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2004, 03:34:25 PM »
I blame Walmart.

Offline TheDudeDVant

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« Reply #192 on: August 03, 2004, 03:36:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
Phookat[ disagrees]


     You may disagree all you want.but it doesnt change the fact of truth,this country was founded on judeo/christian values,

.     Mostly in the 600s the land where europe now is was barbaric in nature.Until the refermation and the spread of the king james bible people didnt know what christian was,they only knew what preist told them it was hence all the bad things that happened in the name of jesus.

    At the time of the revolution europe was so steeped in the church of the state doctrine that if you didnt belong to the state church many bad things could happen to you. Therefore our founding fathers didnt want a church controled by gov.Hence freedom of religion any religion and there is no such thing as seperation of church and state until 1964. Freedom of religion was to protect the church from the gov not to protect the gov from the church. and to guarantee freedom of religion not from religion.
   Look at the post from many here ,no prayer here, no God there,no ten comandments anywhere. Well I gaurantee you most of the christians in America are not like the ones in roman days,when you make your move,and someday you will,there will be a blood bath.We wont be sitting in an arena waiting to be eating by lions.


Sorry guy, but the BS flag must come out..

If this country was founded on these values you speak of, why is it not evident in the Constitution?? Clearly John 3:16 is all over the Declaration of Independence...  Many in this country might hold the values that you speak of, but so do many in China, Taibet, Japan, Turkey, Iraqi, and even in Iran. Values are not defined by your particular religion...

Offline phookat

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« Reply #193 on: August 03, 2004, 03:51:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
"In chapter twelve Lord Krishna extols the glory of devotion to God. Along with this he explains the different forms of spiritual disciplines and discusses the qualities of the devotees who by performing their activities in this way become very dear to Him. Thus this chapter is entitled: The Path of Devotion."

Actual sanskrit translation:

"Knowledge is superior to practice, meditation is considered better than knowledge; renouncing the results of actions than meditation, verily by such renunciation comes tranquility."

Sorry, that is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, I'm sure you're anxious to prove your point, so let's continue.


OK, we'll move on...but did you read the whole chapter?


Back to the scenario.  In your last post, I did not detect any disagreement or further corrections.  Let's continue.

It turns out the person was wrong.  He picked the wrong religion.  When he dies, he boils in hot oil for eternity.


That ends the scenario.

Now for a couple discussion questions.

1) Is God fair and just?

2) Was this outcome fair or just?

3) Coming from an external viewpoint, how would one avoid this awful disaster?

storch

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Christians can sure be jerks
« Reply #194 on: August 03, 2004, 04:09:54 PM »
Could Jesus Christ be convicted in a court of law for having risen from the dead? Could the evidence be brought forth and support a conviction?