Originally posted by phookat
OK, we'll move on...but did you read the whole chapter?
Back to the scenario. In your last post, I did not detect any disagreement or further corrections. Let's continue.
It turns out the person was wrong. He picked the wrong religion. When he dies, he boils in hot oil for eternity.
That ends the scenario.
Now for a couple discussion questions.
1) Is God fair and just?
2) Was this outcome fair or just?
3) Coming from an external viewpoint, how would one avoid this awful disaster?
Of course I did.
IF all religions (or even just the two generic ones you mention) were identical except for the "prophets", then maybe you'd have some basis for claiming that such a scenario would reflect an unjust outcome and an unjust God. But they're not. You can claim some similarities. You can claim similar values. You can claim common origin. But you can't claim that any two religions are identical except for the names of the "prophets" involved. So the premise you set for the outcome you desire is flawed to begin with.
Claiming a close correlation between Hinduism and Christianity was an interesting theory. I'm sort of surprised you didn't shoot for a correlation between Judaism or Islam and Christianity, given their relationship and origins. Christianity has it's firm roots in Judaism and Islam was Mohammed's interpretation of Christianity (excising the divination of Christ which he didn't particularly care for).
We touched on an individual's spiritual awakening or their religious experience that brought them to their conviction over their faith. You mentioned a specific form of Hindu meditation/yoga that you felt served as an identical example of a Christian's experience with the Holy Spirit. Why don't we explore the differences expressed in spiritual awakening between Eastern and Western religion and Hinduism and Christianity specifically?
In most Eastern religions we see an individual attempting to become enlightened spiritually through forms of physical and mental meditation techniques that supposedly trigger a spiritual awakening. It's quite understandable how one can feel such techniques lead to spiritual oneness with a higher being or with nature or with the universe. I felt it myself, once, at a Shinto meeting. It really isn't much difference from John Denver's "Rocky Mountain High." Truth be told, even Christians use prayer and meditation to become more attuned to that still, small voice they have within. So don't think I'm knocking it, in the least. But the next day, after having been a guest at the Shinto meeting and participating in their ceremony (and experiencing the high associated with meditation techniques and chanting as well as the euphoria that exists when being surrounded with others experiencing a similar euphoria), it evaporated as easily as dew in the sun.
The difference in Christianity is when one takes the step of faith and reaches to God, God reaches back. And familiarity with the Holy Spirit sticks with you. I know, you claim that God reaches back in Hinduism, as well.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe07/sbe07099.htm1. Sitting with the feet stretched out and crossed so as to touch the thighs, with the right hand (stretched out and) resting upon the left, with the tongue fixed in the palate, and without bringing the one row of teeth in contact with the other, with the eyes directed to the tip of the nose, and without glancing at any of the (four) quarters of the sky, free from fear, and with composure, let him meditate upon (Purusha), who is separate from the twenty-four entities,
2. He who is eternal, beyond the cognisance of the senses, destitute of qualities, not concerned with sound, tangibility, form, savour, or odour, knowing everything, of immense size,
3. He who pervades everything, and who is devoid of form,
4. Whose hands and feet are everywhere, whose eyes, head, and face are everywhere, and who is able to apprehend everything with all the senses.
5. Thus let him meditate.
6. If he remains absorbed in such meditation for a year, he obtains the accomplishment of Yoga (concentration of the thought and union with the Supreme).
7. If he is unable to fix his mind upon the being
8. In this way let him arrive at meditation upon Purusha.
9. If unable to follow this method also, he must meditate on Purusha shining like a lamp in his heart, as in a lotus turned upside down.
10. If he cannot do that either, he must meditate upon Bhagavat Vāsudeva (Vishnu), who is adorned with a diadem, with ear-rings, and with bracelets, who has the (mystic mark) Srīvatsa and a garland of wood-flowers on his breast, whose aspect is pleasing, who has four arms, who holds the shell, the discus, the mace, and the lotus-flower, and whose feet are supported (and worshipped) by the earth.
11. Whatever he meditates upon, that is obtained by a man (in a future existence): such is the mysterious power of meditation.
12. Therefore must he dismiss everything perishable from his thoughts and meditate upon what is imperishable only.
13. There is nothing imperishable except Purusha.
14. Having become united with him (through constant meditation), he obtains final liberation.
15. Because the great lord pervades the whole universe (pura), as he is lying there (sete), therefore is he denominated Puru-sha by those who reflect upon the real nature (of the Supreme Spirit).
16. In the first part and the latter part of the night must a man bent on contemplation constantly and with fixed attention meditate upon Purusha Vishnu, who is destitute of (the three) qualities (sattva, ragas, and tamas) and the twenty-fifth entity.
17. He (or it) is composed of the entities, beyond the cognisance of the senses, distinct from all the (other) entities, free from attachment, supporting everything, devoid of qualities and yet enjoying (or witnessing the effect of) qualities.
18. It exists without and within created beings (as being enjoyed and as enjoyer), and in the shape both of immovable things (such as trees or stones) and of movable things (such as water or fire); it is undistinguishable on account of its subtlety; it is out of reach (imperceptible), and yet is found in the heart.
19. It is not distinct from creation, and yet distinct from it in outward appearance; it annihilates and produces by turns (the world), which consists of everything that has been, that will be, and that is.
20. It is termed the light of the sidereal bodies and the enemy of darkness (ignorance), it is knowledge, it should be known, it may be understood (by meditation), it dwells in every man's heart.
21. Thus the 'field,' knowledge (or meditation), and what should be known have been concisely declared; that faithful adherent of mine who makes himself acquainted therewith, becomes united to me in spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whew! 21 steps in a year-long (or likely more) struggle to attain a level of meditation that allows the adherant to become united in spirit with Vishnu (the preserver and one of the pantheon of Hindu Gods).
Versus
Acts 2
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
or
Acts 11
15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
or
Romans 5
5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
(All NIV)
A wonderous and miraculous God who desires that all his children, created by him, would accept his grace.
There's a definate, clear-cut difference between what each of these two religions perceives as spiritual awakening and a personal relationship with God.
Choices? Of course. As I stated before, if there were no choices then neither faith nor grace is neccesary. I'm sure some here hold to that very belief. There are many choices.
