Author Topic: 20+K L-Gay7's  (Read 696 times)

Offline Xargos

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20+K L-Gay7's
« on: August 02, 2004, 02:50:57 AM »
Last night I was flying high cover at field 19 to give my countrymen a chance to get airborn when I saw a La-7 coming in at over 20K, I was in G-10 at 20K.  The L-Gay dove on me & got on my 6 so I started a climbing corkscrew as the L-Gay started to stall he dove away but I was unable to follow because I spoted another L-Gay at over 20K.  The second L-Gay did the same thing as the first.  I did not chase the second one because the first one was already taken care of & the people below said they had the second under control as well, so I stayed on station until my fuel ran low.  Why would someone fly an La-7 at over 20K?
Jeffery R."Xargos" Ward

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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2004, 02:54:24 AM »
Because they have no knowledge of the plane they are flying.  If they did, they would have known the La7's performance starts to decrease above 16,000ft.


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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2004, 03:00:57 AM »
Ack Ack like you and most others have no idea about the la7s speed at alt.

The la7s worst performance (and even that isnt that bad) is between 10 and 16k.  Its best speed is at 20k.


Offline Xargos

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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2004, 03:18:45 AM »
I guess I only remember the L-Gays from AH1.  They still could not hang with my 109 at that alt.  If people want to hang around at 20K they should stay & fight instead of only being able to attack people below them.  I find most people at ALT will only make 2 or 3 passes then they run.  I realy enjoy a fight at ALT with someone better then me because I'm not worried about someone else budding in and it seems more of a challenge to get a kill.
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2004, 03:50:18 AM »
Performance hasn’t changed that much. The la7 was just as good at 20k in AH1 as in AH2. The g10 is still faster and climbs better. In the Niemen event many LW were surprised by the la7 at 20k. Your surprise isn’t unique.

The reason you don’t see many la7s that high is because at 5k their performance relative to the other planes is greater even though it is slightly slower then at 20k. As such there's no reason to go that high looking for an advantage. Also the la7 doesn't have very good range /  flight time. Once at 20k it has burned a lot of fuel and as such has the added benefit of less weight.

A lot of folks have trouble interpreting the charts when comparing aircraft. Just looking at best speed doesn’t necessarily mean “greatest” advantage. The La-7 is a fine aircraft and can beat you at just about any alt.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2004, 03:58:32 AM »
Any plane would be that high simply in the hope they could be higher than their enemy at the start of the fight...

If I was flying an La7 id rather be at 20K rather than 15K when I meet a 15K Bf109G10. I'll have the early advantage regardless of what the charts show..

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2004, 04:39:08 AM »
This is a common myth among people that Soviet planes suck at alt. However the reality is quite contrary.

 The only "disadvantage" a late-war Soviet fighter has against other planes when at 20k or so, is that its climb performance is limited. Otherwise it still retains much of its potency in maneuvering, speed and firepower.

 Sustained climb is rarely of any issue in close-range combat where any "ACM" is involved - unless one's opponent is into the habit of fighting a bit-boring, but tactically smart fighting in which a lot of extensions and climbs are involved.

 For instance, if I should meet a La-7 at that alt in my Bf109G-10, after a few merges I'd get a general picture of how skilled he is. Since I'm in no way a crack-shot gunner or a hotshot pilot, I'd  do leisurely gunning passes and extend the fight time longer and longer. After a few minutes the difference in climb performance would show and I'd eventually end up higher than the La-7.

 However, no matter how much higher I am, if I should shoot him down I have to engage him at some point - which then the La-7 has but to simply nose down and dive down lower and the "disadvantage" in altitude vanishes, and he can at least manage a co-E situation. The only other option I have in that case(...if I should not risk an all-out maneuvering fight, which I most probably cannot win if the La-7 is at least as good as I am...) is to gun him down during one of the BnZ passes which, is highly unlikely.

 In almost any case the La-7 or the Yak-9U is a dangerous plane at any altitude. The only reason people hardly acknowledge the super-plane as it is, is because it is so widely overused by low-skill pilots.
 
 Be it a P-38L or a P-51D or whatever "good at high alts" plane it is, if they should meet a La-7 piloted by someone who knows that plane well, its not gonna be an easy fight despite the burden of altitude.

 Luckily, the chances are, one rarely meets anyone who can be considered "above average" in the MA.

Offline GODO

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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2004, 06:02:29 AM »
La7s over 10k do not use WEP, if you engange then high, you may have a marginal advantage along your wep duration, the La7 will remain fresh all the time.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2004, 09:05:43 AM »
Wotan is correct..... infact the AH2 La7 still has better manifold pressure at 17K.

However if the fight is a sector away then the la7 can often catch the odd FW out by garnering speed prior to the merge.

A few well chosen angles by the FW/G10/Jug at this alt will blunt any La7 attack.

Then the  FW/G10/Jug has to come play in the La7's turf lower down ........if the la7 still has  the fuel.
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Offline Edbert

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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2004, 11:20:40 AM »
ANY aircraft at 20+K is very little threat to those of us under 10K, you just keep an eye on em every so often and chuckle to yourself about their dweeberry :D

Offline dedalos

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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2004, 12:01:23 PM »
Is this one of those "Its OK for me to be at 20K in the plane I like, but why is that dweeb here also?  He should not be.  I should have the alt advantage" threads?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Canaris

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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2004, 12:58:14 PM »
I cant stand seeing lgay7s that high.  They are faster than a 51 to begin with and cant turn with a nik.  Why does anyone need to be more than 10k in a lgay7 ill never understand.

Canaris

Offline slaker

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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2004, 07:07:51 PM »
Cool La-7 Reference  Sky Corner La-7

Translation:
 
All recommendations, obtained with building of aircraft caress # 206, they considered on constructed during January 1944 the aircraft of &.tsuot;La-shch the standard of 1944 g.&.tsuot;: the external and internal hermetic sealing of power plant and glider is carry ouied, the shields, which completely close the niches of chassis, are established, oil radiator is transferred under the fuselage, and the suction branches of supercharger - into the nose of center section, the form of the fairings between the wing and the fuselage is improved, reduced a quantity of covers of cowling is reduced the size of mobile lateral folds; due to the installation of aerodynamic compensators on the elevators it was possible to decrease the stick forces to 20-23%. &.tsuot;Etalon&.tsuot; was obtained the intensive armament from three 20- mm of the guns Of berezina UB-20 with the ammunition on 150 projectiles to the stem. The first flight on the modernized destroyer test pilot Georgiy Mikhaylovich shiyanov completed on 2 February, 1944, only in two weeks; on 16 February - they transmitted aircraft to official tests. According to the program State of tests it was planned to carry out 44 flights, but in the ninth flight, on 20 February, occurred the break of connecting rod in the engine, and for test pilot a.G.Kubyshkin with difficulty it was possible to plant destroyer. Tests were renewed on 8 March, after repair caress. When the large part of the program was worked out, because of the manufacturing defect (poor glueing) in air was destroyed the 12th frame of fuselage, Kubyshkin again it knew how to plant the damaged aircraft. In the test report Major kubyshkin noted that considerably increased the horizontal speed and rate of climb, maximum speed it reached the value of 680 km/h at the height of 6250 m - best result among all domestic destroyers of that time. At the same time it also deficiencies in &.tsuot;etalona of 1944 g.&.tsuot; - heat in the cab (+40-50° s), accumulation in the cab of the condensate of moisture, are great pedal forces, the rapid abandoning of machine is not provided, there is no automation of control of power plant. The conclusion Of kubyshkin made the following: it &.tsuot;Samolet according to its flight-performance data it is one of the best destroyers. It is necessary to boost series building with the simultaneous elimination of nedostatkov.&.tsuot pointed out above; In the beginning of May the standard of 1944 was neglected into the series production under the designation la -7, and from November 1944 la -7 completely extruded the la -5FN, production which ceased (by the way, on last series la -5FN were inculcated some innovations of &.tsuot;etalona&.tsuot;, in particular, on la -5FN 39-1 and 41-1 series metallic wing spars). Majority series la -7 is released with two guns SHVAK, but not with three UB-20. Gun UB-20 was altered under the caliber 20 mm machine gun UB, and it were at first characterized by low reliability; only 368 three-cannon la, prepared to the end of the war, they were constructed from March 1945 at the plant ¹ of 381. In all were produced 5750 destroyers la -7. Troop tests from 15 September through 15 October, 1944, la -7 underwent to 63- m giap, which commanded the Hero of the Soviet Union Lieutenant Colonel Gorbatov. Regiment was based on the Lithuanian airfields Of shaulyay and Purchay. In the tests took part 30 &.tsuot;Lavochkinykh&.tsuot;. Guardsmen brought down 55 aircraft of enemy (52 fw190 and three Bf 109) in 47 air battles, after losing its four machines (everything - because of the engine failures). In one battle on 25 September six la -7 of Major Voronkov attacked 12 &.tsuot;fokkerov&.tsuot; and it brought down seven of them! Undoubtedly, their role in this calculation said not only technology, but also enormous combat experience of pilots - autumn of 1944. - this is not the summer of 1941! Personnel of guard regiment consisted of veterans, some pilots began to war on caress even in the environs of Stalingrad. Then to &.tsuot;fokke-vul'fakh&.tsuot; the lethal factor it is far from Of khartmany - at the end of the war into the destroyers and the fighter-bombers many pilots from the disbanded bomber and transport air groups, which did not manage the skill of air battle, arrived. However, on the la -7 they successfully beat German aces. In the fall of 1944 for the opposition to destroyers of Helmut Vicat (130 victories) toward the 3rd Baltic front was directed the squadron of Ivan kozhedub from 176- GO giap. Squadron was based on the airfield Of valga. Sum of the mission of guardsmen - 12 biased Germans with two lost its aircraft. As a result the activity of &.tsuot;okhotnikov&.tsuot; Lyuftvaffe sharply was reduced. La -7 so not was deprived of very serious deficiencies. For example, on it there is no automation of control of the work of power plant. The characteristics of aircraft unavoidably are reduced with the mass production - not one series la -7 developed the speed more than 658 km/h. The shortage of speed served as the reason for conducting BY NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE VVS in August- September of 1944 monitoring tests of the aircraft of advance run and series. Test pilots advanced to series machine the unsatisfactory estimation: the shortage of speed, the temperature in the cab composed +55° s, with the climb the motor was heated. La -7 on the combination of combat characteristics became the best Soviet series destroyer World War II. On this aircraft Of i.N.Kozhedub, honored three gold stars of Hero of the Soviet Union, gained the large part of its victories. One of the last rams in the World War II was perfected on the la -7. Of guards captain p.Ya.Golovachev from 9th GIAP, 30 December of 1944 intercepted the high-altitude intelligence officer Ju 88, he was succeeded in damaging aircraft by cannon turns; however, on 9000 m of the gun of zamerzli - remained only ram. &.tsuot;Yunkere&.tsuot; it collapsed in the district of the German city Of trayburg, and Golovochev could successfully plant its &.tsuot;Lavochkin&.tsuot;. In all for the war Of golovachev brought down 31 aircraft personally one in the group, 12 enemy machines it destroyed on the la -7 and two - to LaGG-e.
 
Modification   Là-7
span of wing, m   9.80
Length, m   8.67
Height, m   2.54
Wing Area, m2   17.59
Mass, êg    
  Empty   2605
  Takeoff   3265
Type of Engine   1 PE Shvetsov ASH -82FN  
Power, hp   1 õ 1850
Maximum Speed , kph    
  sea level   597
  at 6250 m   680
Service Range, km   635
Maximum Rate of Climbe, m/min   1111
Service Ceiling, m   10750
Crew   1
Armament:    three 20-mm UB-20 or two 20-mm  SHVAK
  200 kg of bombs


My comments:
Max speed of prototype is 680 km/h at the height of 6250 m (422 mph at 20,505 ft), however... "The characteristics of aircraft unavoidably are reduced with the mass production - not one series (i.e. production) la-7 developed the speed more than 658 km/h"  (408  mph)

"Max climb (presumably of prototype) 1,111 m/min" = 3,645  ft/min (presumably at sea level)
 
only 368 three-cannon la, prepared to the end of the war
    - Why is the 3 cannon version not considered a different model like the F4U-1C (200 produced)?
 
the temperature in the cab composed +55° s, with the climb the motor was heated.
    - Yikes, it got up to 131 Degrees Fahrenheit in the cockpit because of the engine heat during climb!  Take a bottle of cold water along.
 
La-7 power loading 7189 lbs/1850hp = 3.88 lbs/hp at S.L.
But what really counts is thrust, not power.  I suspect the propeller was a limiting factor to the performance of the La-7.

Offline Xargos

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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2004, 12:24:06 AM »
Nice write up Slacker.  I flew the La-7 today, got 3 kills in the blink of an eye.  Many of the moves I performed I would not have tried in my 109.  The limiting factor in the La-7 appears to be the fuel load.  In the 109 I always take a drop tank even if Im only going to next base.
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Offline FT_Animal

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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2004, 12:48:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert MOL
ANY aircraft at 20+K is very little threat to those of us under 10K, you just keep an eye on em every so often and chuckle to yourself about their dweeberry :D


Not directed at you, but what the HELL is the matter with flying a plane over 10k, better yet 20k? Hell I START a lot of my fighting at 30k buff hunting, and work my way down.

All this sniveling I see on these boards about alt seems so ignorant to me. Having more alt then the next guy has always been a realistic preferred advantage, in RL and games.

Now I can understand when a pile-let has to grab to 35k to get above someone is idiotic game play in the arena. But to me,.... anything below 30k is acceptable to everyone except the alt monkey's target.

Do you hinestly think you'll find a group of 17s below 10k? if I were to lead a group of 17s it's not going to be below 20k. You better have SOMEONE up there or I'm going to nuke your base.

If I were high alt buff hunting and there's no buffs and a target 10k below me I'm taking it.

I don't get it.