Aces HIgh II: 1st Camp After Action Report

[Bubbaj6]

Your first paragraph proves one of my points.  You say that Rooks were able to overcome numerical imbalance in the past due to "superior tactics".  So why is that the boards are literally seeping with Rooks in other threads saying it is simply payback time for when they were on the low end of they found ways to compensate for it?  It either was a problem or was not yet Rooks are trying to have it both ways.  

Also, I would still argue that someone with a K/D ratio of 6:1 would simply not be successful in a 6 vs 1 engagment no matter what tactics they employed.  My own is porbably around 3:1 when discounting upping form a vulched base, dinking around with a new plane, etc. and I know what my chances are in a 3 vs 1 fight.  Not very good.

While I don't think stats show the full picture, I will concede that I think your rational for why they remain pratically unchanged is probably accurate.  I agree that they are largely dependant on the "core" group within each of the countries and that these core groups do not move around much.  It is afterall human nature to hang out with your friends so I think it can be said that the longer someone plays with a given side the less likely they are to switch while the newbies/score potatos probably gravitate to whatever side is currently winning because that is what they are interested in.

My point is not that the stats don't illustrate the core issue to most people.  That it gets real old when you are consistently steam-rolled and horded out of existance.  I could be the best ace ever but if I am fighting against incredible odds all the time or can't even get off the ground it is going to get old in a hurry.  \


Another way to look at it is only when the numbers are close to even will fights come down to skill.  It is one thing to loose to someone who outflew me or to loose a base to someone that put on a better offense than our own defense.  It is however, quite another to loose simply because there was no one else available to counter the fourth simultaneous horde.

Losing to someone who is better than me is fun.  Losing to someone I have routinely beaten before but loose to now simply because they are in a horde is not.  This loss will also go into their K/D ratio and, under circumstances such as this thread, will sudenly mean that this same person is more "skilled" than I am when we both now who comes out on top usually.  That is why the stats offer only a limited basis for your assertions.

[BigB717]

There is so much crud in this thread its amazing, quit your whining and complaining, cause u know what, no matter what side your on you will always have someone at 30K 20K 10K whatever. So quit your crap talk, no matter what side your on it WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME!, so no more of this rooks have 30k n1ks, cause so will your side.

Fly the dang airplane.......

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Bubbaj6



Another way to look at it is only when the numbers are close to even will fights come down to skill.  It is one thing to loose to someone who outflew me or to loose a base to someone that put on a better offense than our own defense.  It is however, quite another to loose simply because there was no one else available to counter the fourth simultaneous horde.

Losing to someone who is better than me is fun.  Losing to someone I have routinely beaten before but loose to now simply because they are in a horde is not.  This loss will also go into their K/D ratio and, under circumstances such as this thread, will sudenly mean that this same person is more "skilled" than I am when we both now who comes out on top usually.  That is why the stats offer only a limited basis for your assertions.

I'm going to have to call you on one point here. I think skill plays a much larger role when outnumbered. If you are outnumbered the only way you are going to survive and/or kill is by being very skillfull. If you are outnumbered AND lack skill, you're totally screwed. With even numbers, even random chance is going to allow you to get some kills and possibly survive an engagement.

Interestingly, as I fly Rooks more than any other country, skill also plays a much larger role when your side has the numbers. Not because of your opponent but because of friendly competition. In order to get kills Sunday nights for example, you have to be quicker, smarter, a better shot and be better at anticipating than everyone in your area. It's actually survival of the fittest in motion. In alot of ways it's actually much easier to get kills and survive when outnumbered, within reason of course. I often find myself pushing untenable situations as a Rook trying to get a kill strictly because I'm low on gas and have alot of ammo left and end up dying due to a general lack of prey.

Zazen

[mars01]

That may be possible, but it's not proveable, it's just your opinion until we get statistics that can bear you out. I would honestly like to know if that is the case myself, I highly doubt it is, but I'd love to know all the same.

One reason I do not think your postulation is correct is looking at the Top 99 Fighter pilots. In order to compete at the upper echelon of the Fighter Pilot spectrum you must maintain a very respectable K/T. The fact that Rooks totally dominate the Top 99 list indicates that many Rooks have an equally impressive if not superior K/T relative to their Bishop and Knight peers.
 

Take it with a grain of salt Zazen.  I was just pointing out a possible scenario.  I used you and Beetle as examples because you both have said in the past that you like to fly high and with an advantage.

But my point is that same.  Your numbers do not show a total picture.  The top 99 guys are flawed by the same problems with your other data.  There is no way around it.  It is what it is.

[mars01]

There is so much crud in this thread its amazing, quit your whining and complaining, cause u know what, no matter what side your on you will always have someone at 30K 20K 10K whatever. So quit your crap talk, no matter what side your on it WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME!, so no more of this rooks have 30k n1ks, cause so will your side.

Tho I couldn't agree more I think your posted in the wront thread lol.

Whos crying about alt dweebs, this thread is more about making false assumptions on flawed data.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Take it with a grain of salt Zazen.  I was just pointing out a possible scenario.  I used you and Beetle as examples because you both have said in the past that you like to fly high and with an advantage.

But my point is that same.  Your numbers do not show a total picture.  The top 99 guys are flawed by the same problems with your other data.  There is no way around it.  It is what it is.

I don't actually fly as high as often as I like everyone to believe. That's a bit of propaganda that serves to leave me unmolested down low in my Typhoon. I get a bad rap because when I am in an E-Fighter I make damn sure I'm at least a little higher than my better turning opponent before I engage. A 2k advantage often balloons into a 20k advantage when the "Fish Story", from my victims come out on public chat.

Anyways, don't take me the wrong way, I'm just a very 'intense' person, in this game and in real life. It's all in good fun. I just love AH, love WW2 flight combat and history. Savoring and debating the nuances and finer points is high quality entertainment to me, especially when I'm stuck at work and can't actually fly.

Zazen

[mars01]

I know and actually you have recanted your earliest positions on alt, which I do respect.  

Again I used you as an example to drive the point home.

Personally I could care less who the better country is.  All I care about are there enough cons to kill lol.

But it is insane to make these judgement calls on such flaky data.  Thats all most of us are trying to say.

[Bubbaj6]

I will not contest that skill definately helps determine the point at which the sitaution becomes untenable, but my point still stands.  No matter how much skill one side may have at some point they will reach the breaking point where the numbers imbalance is simply not conducive to fun or success any more.  Compounding this issue is that the lesser skilled players and score potatos jump to the side that is "winning" which further contributes to the numbers imbalance problems and it quickly turns into a downward spiral.  Much like what happened when the rooks were overwhelmed before and like what is happening now.

Skill and numbers have a cumaltive effect and simply cannot be evaluated as independent forces on the dynamics of the MA.  The most skilled person will eventually be overwhelmed in a fight against superior numbers and by the same token the least skilled can overwhelm their strongest adversary given sufficient numbers.  Even you must concede this point.

That is why simply looking at K/D ratios is not an effective tool to explain one side's ability to consistently win in the MA.  The two are insperably linked.

Ironically, it is the very complaining the rooks did back when they were overwhelmed and the continued reminders that are bringing this to the forefront now.  People simply don't want to return to that state because it does not hold the same appeal that a fight hinging around skill (and admitedly random chance) does.  

I do know exactly what you mean about when you are part of a horde and the different kind of skill that must be employed to still get kills.  I cannot tell you how many times I pulled the dumb-arse auger trying to outfly my own countrymen rather than the enemy

I will say this though:  At least a horde of knights sounds more noble

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
I know and actually you have recanted your earliest positions on alt, which I do respect.  

Again I used you as an example to drive the point home.

Personally I could care less who the better country is.  All I care about are there enough cons to kill lol.

But it is insane to make these judgement calls on such flaky data.  Thats all most of us are trying to say.

Yea, like I tell Todd, I'd love to have more complete data, whether it proves my speculations correct or not, I'd just love to work the numbers. I love baseball for the statistics too, I'm just a big geek I guess. I find it frustrating that it would be rather easy for HTC to finish the Stats section on the score page and give us access to all the component statistics that are already kept in the database but for some reason hasn't in almost 3 years of, "Coming Soon". All the statistics we need are there, they just need to be compiled from individuals to country.

Zazen

[SlapShot]

I'm just a big geek I guess.

You guess ?

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Bubbaj6
I will not contest that skill definately helps determine the point at which the sitaution becomes untenable, but my point still stands.  No matter how much skill one side may have at some point they will reach the breaking point where the numbers imbalance is simply not conducive to fun or success any more.  Compounding this issue is that the lesser skilled players and score potatos jump to the side that is "winning" which further contributes to the numbers imbalance problems and it quickly turns into a downward spiral.  Much like what happened when the rooks were overwhelmed before and like what is happening now.

Skill and numbers have a cumaltive effect and simply cannot be evaluated as independent forces on the dynamics of the MA.  The most skilled person will eventually be overwhelmed in a fight against superior numbers and by the same token the least skilled can overwhelm their strongest adversary given sufficient numbers.  Even you must concede this point.

That is why simply looking at K/D ratios is not an effective tool to explain one side's ability to consistently win in the MA.  The two are insperably linked.

Ironically, it is the very complaining the rooks did back when they were overwhelmed and the continued reminders that are bringing this to the forefront now.  People simply don't want to return to that state because it does not hold the same appeal that a fight hinging around skill (and admitedly random chance) does.  

I do know exactly what you mean about when you are part of a horde and the different kind of skill that must be employed to still get kills.  I cannot tell you how many times I pulled the dumb-arse auger trying to outfly my own countrymen rather than the enemy

I will say this though:  At least a horde of knights sounds more noble

I think part of our misunderstanding on this point is because you are looking at the same issue from a microcosmic point-of-view whereas I am looking at it from a macrocosmic point-of-view. I think we can agree that if the numerical disparity deviates more than 25% between the countries, relative skill has increasingly limited returns. But, with the exception of Sunday nights for Rooks and that 6 month+ period in 2002 there has never been a sustained deviation of that magnitude in AH. So, relative skill still should be the deciding factor when looking at overall country success.

As far as isolated limited engagements are concerned, skill will unlikely decide a lop-sided fight, in that you are correct, so much depends on luck and chance in a 3 on 1 for example. All it takes is for one of those 3 to decide to pull for a HO on an overwhelmed but skillfull opponent and fight's over.

But, in terms of an entire arena of players skill and tactics still holds sway over marginally lop-sided battles, as Slappy alluded to before, how one side applies its forces tactically can have an amplifying effect on their impact. An effect that is disproportionately greater in its impact relative to its numbers. Even Slappy conceded this seems to be the case with Rooks. On the flip-side, a country can mis-apply it's numerically superior forces causing its net effect to be disproportionately less than the sheer numbers would indicate. This seems to be the case with Bishops.

Zazen

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by X2Lee
Well the Da will tell the story about yer skill mate. when you ready?
Stat monkey u are.

My broad stroke was on par with your broad strokes.

X2Lee, you should know Zazen well enough from AW that he will not engage in a 1v1 fight nor duel.  Both will reveal his shortcomings, which is the underlying reason for his posting this thread.  Which is also the reason why he made mention of your stats against his to show "his uberness" but doesn't point out that the fighting styles of both of you are polar opposites.  I've had the pleasure of flying with you for many years, some of those in Red Dawn and I know how you fly, aggressive and willing to mix it up.  Zazen on the other hand is more timid, will not engage in 1v1s unless he's got a superior advantage and will not engage if you are coalt.  He usually hangs back outside of a furball gathering altitude and pounces on those that are already engaged in a fight.  So let Zazen hide behind these numbers if they give him a false sense of being good, because you know and I know how Zazen would fair in a 1v1 and I wouldn't put my money on Zazen.

ack-ack

[Bubbaj6]

True enough, but a macrocosm is simply a collection of microcosms therefore what I am describing is all the fights (micro)that overall determine the flow of overall battle in the MA (macro).

I fully agree that if numbers are close to even then battles and the war both will be determined mostly by skill which is what everyone wants.  When the numbers greatly favor one side, skill is left by the wayside.

I also agreeded with you that skill can help offset slight differences in numbers however everyone must recognize that eventually a point of no return is reached.  I am not arguing either of these ideaswith you at all.

The backlash right now in the community against the growing trend of numbers disparity is an attempt to proactively deal with the situation in order to prevent what has happened before in the form of the Rooks being seriously outnumbered from re-occuring against a different side.  

I am sure that if I went back to look at posts from that time I could find the Bish making many of the same arguments the Rooks are today (though not neccessarily your arguments) about why it didn't matter.

So, do you agree that K/D and/or skill is not the only dynamic at work in the MA?  I'll let others debate the notion of whether high K/D ratios= skill because I think you threw that one out there just to provide yourself with some entertainment while you are at work  All one has to do is look at some of your comments in the Voss thread to see what you really think

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by SlapShot
I'll take a stab at it ...

WildThing
Nomak
Shane
Leviathn

These are guys that I have fought in the DA and in the MA and I know for a fact that none of them can fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the MA scenario, but will hand you your arnold in the DA.

You've never winged with Leviathn have you?  One time when we were winging, we got jumped by 6 Rookies at low alts.  I downed one immediately and then turned to engage another one that was trying to sneak on Lev's 6 when I noticed that there were only 3 Rookies left  and downed the Rookie trying to saddle up on Lev.  In the 3 minutes it took me to down the 2 Rookies, Lev already killed the other 4.  Other than Drex and eaglr, I've never seen SA as well as Lev's in the 10+years of playing these games.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Panman
And AKAK quit lookin in my windows I do own gunns:eek:

                                               Panman:cool:

Crap!


ack-ack