Author Topic: More Gun control???  (Read 5608 times)

Offline Curval

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« Reply #225 on: August 18, 2004, 12:26:29 PM »
You mean all this

"For when a conquering general came to settle the economy of a vanquished country, and to part it out among his soldiers or feudatories, who were to render him military service for such donations; it behoved him, in order to secure his new acquisitions, to keep the rustici or natives of the country, and all who were not his military tenants, in as low a condition as possibel, and especially to prohibit them the use of arms. "

was just about us being less free to own guns and had nothing to do with being "less free" in a more general sense?

Methinks not.

Methinks that was a useful argument to use nearer the top of the page.


;)
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #226 on: August 18, 2004, 12:27:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
One hundred years after your Paradise became so desirable that they paved over the last of your golf courses and then banned your golf clubs.....

will you feel a "need" to golf? 100 years later?

;)


lol...not touching that.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #227 on: August 18, 2004, 01:05:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval


was just about us being less free to own guns and had nothing to do with being "less free" in a more general sense?
 


No, "all that" was just to show that the history of the use of weapons and firearms in Europe is vastly different from the history of the use of weapons and firearms in the USA.

That bears directly on a perceived "need" or desire to own firearms.

In short, their tradition is most certainly not OUR tradition, and that changes peoples perceptions to this present day.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #228 on: August 18, 2004, 05:23:14 PM »
Great debate, honest very informative , I learned a lot about the other side,and a good bit from my side.

 BEETLE....The store owner had been robbed by this same guy several times before thru the skylight. The owner booby trapped the skylight with a shotgun. The guy tried again and was wounded by the shotgun.

 Here is the difference between europe and america.   He was arrested, as the guy in wrags post was. The DA and media tried hard to throw the book at him ,but the jury said not guilty. That is the difference, most of our juries dont let the elities, get by with that. Yes he lost the civil case,thats sad,but not the other case.

Offline wrag

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« Reply #229 on: August 18, 2004, 05:31:52 PM »
Hmmmmmm.....

I basically said someting to the same affect earlier on in this thread???

It's cultural.  There is no base for this discussion to work from.  I truly believe Curval, Beet1e, etc.  will have a major problem in understanding where many Americans' are starting from, and that we will have just as much trouble understanding their viewpoint and where they are starting from.

It's not that any of us lack intelligence.  We lack the background, the living within the culture.  IMHO.

So we are in affect talking apples and oranges.  We see a genuine need where they see a major problem.

BTW your govenor...... did he do anything....

I mean the person that shot them, did that person perhaps believe in some way that they, the govenor and his aid, had wronged some one or something?

Not in any way trying to justify the shooting just curious.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #230 on: August 18, 2004, 05:43:48 PM »
Curvel  gun rights.

 I think we mean you are less free overall. Whatever the country,the goverment that gives you a freedom, can at anytime take it away.
 
  Our founding fathers knew this and wanted to put  America on a different path. They didnt want us to be subject to the goverment but equal . All the fancy words in the bill of rights or any document means nothing. They knew the only way to be equal was to own equal weapons as the goverment. Yes I know we dont own equal weapons now, but still are able to own some darn good ones, and therefore we have the numbers with some punch.

   European countries can do nothing if the goverment decided to take a freedom from you. Whereas we, because of the foresight of our founding fathers , can do something about it. If we would win or not can be  debated. But our goverment knows the bloodshed would be a harsh price to pay.Maybe even lose the country it self.

 So yes we are more free than you are. You are still subject to your goverment. We are not.
 
 And yes curvel europe is actively at this moment thying to take our guns away.

   No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms
   Thomas Jefferson,President and founding father.

    So you are only as free as you goverment permits.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2004, 10:40:22 PM by demaw1 »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #231 on: August 19, 2004, 04:57:00 AM »
Mr. Toad, I thought you were a smart guy. But as of today, your title may have to revert to plain old Toad. Surely you, of all people, do not go along with that tired old justification of the 2nd amendment - the "just in case the government flips its lid". I'll say it one more time. I do not doubt that the US military is the most powerful military force in the world. Heck, enough people crow about it on this board on an almost daily basis. But almost in the same breath, they'll cite their need for guns to defy the government if push came to shove. And as I said last time, let's consider Iraq, which had a trained army, and many of the male civilians were armed. How many days did they survive against US forces? And if they could not survive, can you imagine a trailer park full of seniors with shaking hands and failing eyesight, grappling for the snub nose revolver to ward off trained US forces on the ground and in the air? Based on some of the things which were said later, I think you gave your BBS password to Lazs for the evening. I'd change it if I were you. ;)

And another thing - the whole ethos of America's gun ownership has now turned to game hunting. I realise that's a subject close to your heart, but it's got bugger all to do with the 2nd amendment. After all, how many of your cronies go game hunting with a handgun? I think if you look more closely, you might find that the big issue with people trying to take your guns away (fellow Americans) is handguns, as it is these guns which are the murder weapons of choice.

Curval - you are correct: Britain was last invaded in 1066.

Demaw - the word is government, not goverment.
Quote
European countries can do nothing if the goverment decided to take a freedom from you. Whereas we, because of the foresight of our founding fathers , can do something about it. If we would win or not can be debated. But our goverment knows the bloodshed would be a harsh price to pay.Maybe even lose the country it self.
That's BS, and goes on to reveal how little you know about Europe. Have you ever left the US? Or are you too busy working those 50 hour weeks they have people work over there? If you want me to take what you said seriously, you'd have to quantify it by means of examples. If we have a government we don't like, we don't need to shoot them. We use the ballot box. I am hoping for that opportunity to arise next year.

But as for our government trying to spring something on us that we don't like and can do nothing about, you are completely wrong. And I CAN quantify that with a couple of examples. The  Labour government, currently led by Tony Blair, has long been anti-motorist. They perceive cars as playthings of the rich. But times had changed in the 18 years they were out of office...

...so when they got back in, and tried to increase road fuel prices by 6% above the rate of inflation, there was a well documented fuel tax revolt in 2000. Fuel tankers were blockaded and filling stations ran dry. There was hardly any traffic on Britain's roads for 4 days. The government was forced onto its back foot, and the 6% "accelerator" policy was scrapped.

In the late 1980s, Margaret Thatcher tried to change the way in which people paid for local services - the infamous Poll Tax. It didn't affect me particularly, but less well off people with sizable families were badly hit. There were riots in the streets - most notably the Trafalgar Square riots. The government was forced to readdress its policy, and we now have "Council Tax" which was found to be more acceptable (though that might change).

So don't come that bollocks about us being subjects and not being able to rebel against the government, because we can and we have.

Now I'm going to have a nice day, doing what I want to do. Don't you have WORK to do? :D

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2004, 07:06:28 AM »
Beet, I hate to jump in here, but there seems to be a flaw in your above statement. The members of the U.S. military , in all branchs, are U.S. citizens. They are not like Hitler`s puppets. Most are intelligent and as you said VERY well trained. In the scenario described do you think they would just jump in and fight against the citizens of their own country and turn their back on the very things that they have been taught to cherish all their life because the powers that be said so? I think not. I believe they would instead fight for what they believe in and have been trained to protect.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #233 on: August 19, 2004, 07:31:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by demaw1
So yes we are more free than you are. You are still subject to your goverment. We are not.
 
 And yes curvel europe is actively at this moment thying to take our guns away.

   No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms
   Thomas Jefferson,President and founding father.

    So you are only as free as you goverment permits.


lol....You are just as "subject" to your government as I am.  You honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  You get to have guns.  Guess what?  I pay no income taxes.  None.  Zilch.  Zippo.  Nada.  Butkus.

So, while you face jail time if you don't pay I have the freedom to spend my paychecks...all of it.  Clearly I have more freedom in this regard than you.  Do this make me more or less of a subject than you?  

All countries have laws, and we are all subject to those laws as Toad and I have agreed upon above.

Take a real close look at your Homeland Security laws my friend.  All those wonderful "rights" you have can be taken away without notice or recourse.

How is Europe trying to take away your guns?  Please be very specific.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #234 on: August 19, 2004, 07:36:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
BTW your govenor...... did he do anything....

I mean the person that shot them, did that person perhaps believe in some way that they, the govenor and his aid, had wronged some one or something?

Not in any way trying to justify the shooting just curious.


No...he was just the governor and the guy who shot him was a nutcase.  He was hanged for his actions.
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Offline TPIguy

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« Reply #235 on: August 19, 2004, 08:04:40 AM »
Here is a little essay that may explain why many americans feel the way we do about guns.

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/library/Metal_and_Wood.html


It is a rare person who does not attach some sort of value or emotion to some physical object or to an event. A home becomes more than a building. A statue of the Virgin Mary, a crucifix, a flag or a song, or even a photograph can stir emotions greater than the value of the material item.

I have a piece of paper showing I served in the military until I was discharged honorably. But, oh, the memories that piece of paper conjures up. The friends, the fun times. The bad times. The times when we were bound closer to strangers than to our own families and, in frightening chaos, our lives hung by a thread.

Many of our friends died far from home. Ask us about the feeling of "American soil" upon returning to the land we loved. Ask those returning soldiers about America.

Remember the old, faintly humorous band of American Legionnaires, wearing out-dated military uniforms straining at the buttons. But, God how proudly they marched. Grinning, waving to friends and families, and always, always "The Flag!" Ask them if the flag is mere cloth, I dare you.

See the elderly lady sitting in a lawn chair watching the fourth of July parade. Three flags carefully folded some forty years ago into triangles now rest in her lap - one for each lost son. Ask her if those flags are mere cloth, I dare you.

Look at the old man quietly crying, leaning against the Iwo Jiima Memorial at Arlington Cemetery. As he turns to you, smiles with some embarrassment, and says in a choked whisper, "I was there." Ask him, "Is it just metal and clay?" Ask him. I dare you.

The Wall. My God, the Wall. See the young man lightly tracing the name of his father there inscribed. Ask him if its just rock. Ask him. I dare you.

My guns? They’re of little real value compared to my family and my home. They are toys, or tools, or both. But what those guns represent to me is greater than all of us, greater than myself, my family, indeed greater than our entire generation. What could be of such value?

The freedom of man to live within civil, self-imposed limitations rather than under restrictions placed upon him by a ruler or a ruling class.

Imagine the daring, the bravery of a few men to declare they intended to create a new country, independent of the burden of their established Rulers!

Those men we call our forefathers were brilliant men. They could have maneuvered themselves into positions of influence within the structure of the times, but they did not. They struggled to free themselves from tyranny. They wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they backed up their words and ideals with metal and wood.

They knew the dangers of such dreams and actions. They knew it was a frightening and dangerous venture into the unknown when they dared reach beyond their grasp for a vision - for an ideal. But they dared to dedicate themselves to achieve Liberty and Freedom for their children, and their children’s children, through the generations.

Imagine the dreams and yearnings of centuries finally being reduced to the written word. The Rights of "We the People!" instead of the "Powers of the Monarchy."

Our forefathers dared to create a new government - a new form of government. And they knew that any organization has, as its first and foremost goal, its continued existence. Second only to that it strives to increase its power. It plots, it devises, it maneuvers to achieve control over its environment - over its subjects.

Our Forefathers decided to make America different from any country, anywhere, at any time in the entire history of the entire world. This country, this new nation of immigrants, would be based upon the concept that people could rule themselves better than any single person or small group of persons could rule them.

Other countries have had outstanding documents with guarantees for its citizens - but the citizens have become enslaved. How, these great men pondered, can we ensure this new government will remain subject to the will of the People?

They wanted limits upon this new government. Therefore, our forefathers wrote limitations into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And one of those Rights was that metal and wood, as the final power of the people, would secure this country for the future generations.

Metal and wood were the means by which we won our freedom.

Metal and wood were the means by which we kept our freedom.

Metal and wood may be the means by which we regain our freedom.

Metal and wood are the final power of the people. Take away the metal and wood and the people become powerless - they can only beg, they supplicate for favors.

We are unique in our ability to rule ourselves but we are letting it slip away. Today we compromise. We try to appease man’s insatiable appetite for power by throwing him bits of our freedoms. But the insatiable appetite for power can not be appeased. The freedoms we feed him only make us weaker and him stronger. We must conquer him and again ensure the "Blessings of Liberty" won for us by our forefathers.

We must be ready to use metal and wood again, for if we are ready, truly ready, we may be able to conquer the monster with words - for in its heart it is a coward. But if we continue to feed the monster our freedoms, we will become too weak to win, to weak even to fight, and we will become a conquered people. We will have sold ourselves and our future generations into servitude.

If words fail us, we will use metal and wood, we will regain what we have lost, we will achieve what we seek, we will guarantee the America of our forefathers for the future generations.

So you see, our guns are more than metal and wood. They are our heritage of freedom. They are the universally understood symbol that the government, no matter how big and strong it may be, answers to us! They are the tools we will use to prevent tyranny in the land of our forefathers and our children. So, ask me what my guns mean to me. Ask my children what our guns mean to them. Ask us. I dare you.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #236 on: August 19, 2004, 08:16:47 AM »
TPI...wonderful heartrendering patrotism in that article.  But stop for a moment and think about...say....the British, who fought in the Second World War.  Is their sacrifice somehow diminished because they used their weapons effectively during the conflict, returned home and then gave them back to the army?  Were they just pawns fighting for the Monarch?  Or were they protecting their homes and families against a possible invader?  If you answer the former you insult every single Britsih soldier that fought in that war.

This Monarchy stuff that appears is just rhetoric.  Rhetoric that Americans just seem to be unable to get enough of.

It is this stuff that makes guys like demaw1 post the nonesense he wrote just a few posts up.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #237 on: August 19, 2004, 08:36:25 AM »
this is silly... curval feels well armed with a 9 iron?  curval old buddie... I could probly take it away from you bare handed as could a lot of folks... you are not at all well armed.   Where you live is your shield...  it is a resort... it is like comparing south central Los Angles to disneyland.   Bermuda should not even be mentioned here.   If a couple of royals were killed with said golf clubs would you, as a loyal subject, then condone your governments banning of golf clubs?

beetle claims that if the government ever flips out... well.... all is lost anyway.. we need to just roll over and take it... Very british view historically on how to deal with oppressive government....

 he would be right if the U.S did that and the majority of the people.. a large majority... were behind what it was selling/forcing but... unjust govenment would not have even the full backing of it's own military... and armed citizenry could resist in thousands of places at once.   even 25% of the population could fight and harrass the government to a standstill.   They know it too.  They have done the scenarios.

there is another point to firearms besides hunting and plinking and defence... there is collecting  and history... just as flying rare planes and driving antique cars... shooting antique guns.

In the U.S. more tguns equal less crime.. that is all there is too it.  the more gun control...

oh... and diodn't Scotland invade england sucessxfully in the 1300's and... the4 first thing the brits did when they finally won by overwhellming nuimbers was.... to disarm the Scots?   Why would they do that?  For the Scotts protection?   Surely the benevolent british government didn't fear that their benifial Scottish policies would meet resistance?

lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #238 on: August 19, 2004, 08:38:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Mr. Toad, I thought you were a smart guy. But as of today, your title may have to revert to plain old Toad.  


I've always been plain old Toad.

Did you miss this?

Quote
ToadAnd before someone throws in the inevitable "deer rifles against F-16's", I'd point out that our "citizen soldier" ethic makes it much more likely that the guys with the F-16's will stand with those who believe the Founders were correct than with a corrupted government that no longer honors the Constitution the troops are sworn to defend. There's that other difference...... our troops swear to defend the Constitution, an idea really, rather than a King or any other person.


Constitution, as in 2nd Amendment.

Your personal assumption that the 2nd has "bugger all" to do with game hunting is simply incorrect. In fact, I find your concept as laughable as the Euro concept of US Constitutional "free speech" which periodically runs through the O-Club. In short, it's another concept you simply never will grasp.

Handguns? Oh, it usually starts with handguns, but it never stops, does it?  There in lies the relationship.

You know what the greatest thing is? It's that it doesn't matter one whit that you don't understand the 2nd. Just like it doesn't matter whether you'd vote for Kerry or Bush.

You're happy with your laws and I'm happy you're happy.
However, I'll fight to the end to prevent such laws from being implemented here. I'd be happy fighting those laws, even.

So enjoy your paradise. I sure like mine!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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« Reply #239 on: August 19, 2004, 08:41:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
this is silly... curval feels well armed with a 9 iron?  curval old buddie... I could probly take it away from you bare handed as could a lot of folks... you are not at all well armed.   Where you live is your shield...  it is a resort... it is like comparing south central Los Angles to disneyland.   Bermuda should not even be mentioned here.   If a couple of royals were killed with said golf clubs would you, as a loyal subject, then condone your governments banning of golf clubs?


The point was that I don't NEED to be well armed.

As to the resort thing and the typical reponse of my island not being worth discussing, I find that amusing.  I always know when I have made valid points because that is when the "you don't matter" stuff comes spewing out.
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