Question to all who are so upset

[dragoon]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I'd like to ask another question
"to those that are upset" (see its not off topic)

Hypothetically.

If given the choice of only  one or the other only which would you rather have.

The Current ENY system?

Or fuel back to its previous porkable levels?

Neither really effects the way I Fly so I am curious as to what you all think.

i never was offended by the fuel situation but i am on the eny situation. when the fuel is porked you are forced into a different ride like a fiddy1 or something. so IMO i think that the current fuel system does not help the problem.  when fuel used to be down to 25% that pretty much meant no laffers or n1ks. would be intresting to see the ENY restrictions removed and fuel porkable again. with the burn mult @2 might have the same effect as the ENy disablments. we all know there are flying pigs out there. they love to come to your pad and fix your strats for you. this limits your planeset.

so you have eny restrictions with a min of 75% fuel

or you have no eny restrictions and fuel is porkable to 25% with the exact same effect like it used to be.
==============================================

to the thread starter. sounds like flamebait to me. no one needs you to tell us what a whine is and whos doing it. growing up in a home with 4 sibblings and the fact i have children. all i have heard are angry outbursts (myself included) and complaints................... ..............hardly whines. a whine is something a 5 year old does over a popsicle. since most of us are adults i seriously doubt we are whining. we are voicing opinions in mannors from angry to upset. this is what the so called "number whiners" done and they got their way.

What we are doing is bitzching. the number people done it and now the eny people are doing it. i think its going to go on and on until a solution that can be accepted by everyone is found. until then accept the bitzching cause we had to put up with it b4 the eny disablements with number bitzchers.




quote from skuzzy:

"The fact of the matter is, the community at large has always
had control over the balance in the arenas.

For some reason people stopped trying to help balance the numbers, which made for many frustrated and unhappy players who had nothing to do but always be on the defensive."

since we refused to hear the bitzching of only part of the community, the other part is now suffering. if we want the posts to stop and want EVERYONE to be happy again, we as a community need to do something about this. we need to take it into our own hands to level the field. only then will the ENY restriction be lifted (cannot swear to this but this seems to be a possible fact).

if you want the "whining" to stop, take a stand. talk to a friend on the game. open a squad dialog ANYTHING to try to satisfy ALL instead of the few. if the pros and cons can come together and reach a sensible solution...well you know where im going with this. its either this or the eny people will remain upset. will no one who is FOR the eny system speak up and offer a solution for all?

[baine1]

IMHO the changes do penalize teamwork.
If the Rooks get together and say "Let's all fly tonight and work together as a team to accomplish a goal" and we all log on and then find that, because we all logged on we are denied use of certain planes or vehicles that have a direct impact on our ability to do what we set out to do, ie the B-17 and Panzers, then it appears to me we are being penalized. That might not be the goal of the new system, but it does seem to be the result. And that's why people are complaining.

 If we had another heavy bomber with the survivability of the B-17 (how about a B-17F?) or another nonperk tank then no problem. Unfortunately, the Lancaster falls far short of the B-17 and there really is no other alternative to the Panzer.

As for fighters, take 'em. I have no problem with that. There are enough choices out there to keep things interesting and fair.

I would also point out that this change was implemented with no changes to other bonuses given to the outnumbered team. They still get cheap perk fighters and increased perk points.

I beg to differ that alliances are strictly defensive. Many times I've seen Rook bases considerably reduced in number by these "defensive" alliances. I've also seen Rook numbers shrink like certain body parts in cold water when a Knight/Bishop "defensive" alliance really starts kicking some tail.

I would also point out this system _ or any other system in place _ in no way banned the Knights and Bishops from figuring out that Sundays usually saw a lot of Rooks up flying and upping in similar numbers to counter the threat.

So with this system, I'm flying a Lancaster with no belly gun against a guy who can buy a 262 for peanuts, who gets beucoup points for gunning me down and my escorts are left trying to chase him down in Zekes. In fact,  if I arranged for another squad to come on the same night and escort my squad my chances of getting a B-17 are cut.

That doesn't sound fair, does it?

Few people complained when perks were manipulated to help balance the inequity in numbers because that was a change that seemed fair and sensible. The reason so many people are complaining about this is because it doesn't seem fair.

After thinking about this for a couple of days,  I sort of have to agree that the best way to balance numbers is to implement a general reshuffling. Squadmates will find one another and squads that like to fly together will also eventually hook up again.

My two cents

[twitchy]

Edit for flame bating

[phookat]

Originally posted by baine1
IMHO the changes do penalize teamwork.
If the Rooks get together and say "Let's all fly tonight and work together as a team to accomplish a goal" and we all log on and then find that, because we all logged on we are denied use of certain planes or vehicles that have a direct impact on our ability to do what we set out to do

No, it's not "because you are logged on" that you are denied, it's because you as a group chose to join the team with the most numbers.  If your group joined the team with the least numbers, you'd get to fly what you want, and you could still organize that mission as a group.

At some point, you're going to have to face the fact that numbers do not imply teamwork, and neither does teamwork imply numbers.

Originally posted by baine1
I've also seen Rook numbers shrink like certain body parts in cold water when a Knight/Bishop "defensive" alliance really starts kicking some tail.

In which case the rooks will benefit from the balancer.

Originally posted by baine1
So with this system, I'm flying a Lancaster with no belly gun against a guy who can buy a 262 for peanuts, who gets beucoup points for gunning me down and my escorts are left trying to chase him down in Zekes. In fact,  if I arranged for another squad to come on the same night and escort my squad my chances of getting a B-17 are cut.

That doesn't sound fair, does it?

Sure it does.  You can use numbers to overcome the plane deficiency.  E.g. you can attack the base from two sides, and the 262 will only be able to hit one of the raids.  Teamwork, you know.

[twitchy]

Any questions regarding moderation, email us.

[Ghosth]

Ok just for the record. If you want to call what  I posted a whine, go ahead.

I've been here long enough & posted few enough that I had this one coming.

Second, discussion about ideas, ways to fix the problem are one thing.

Once the systems in place, its fine to point out problems in that system. As it is constructive, and leads to the betterment of all.

However, continued whines, endlessly going over the same ground,  "post here if you hate the new system" posts, & the like do nothing but eat up BBS space & start brush fires. I truly believe that if everyone will just fly for 2 weeks then evaluate the situation.
That most will be able to live with it if not actually happy about it.

Last, this is HT's house, and his labor of  love. Hitech works 6 days a week long hours on what must be done. And comes in sundays to do the "fun" stuff.

Anyone who has ever created anything,
just to have people put it down, & endlessly complain about how crappy it is makes the creator feel like crap.

Constructive helpful critism is one thing.

Continued whine after whine after threat to leave after whine acomplishes nothing.

You will do of course what you choose to do. So be it contine to throw temper tantrums, close your acct, whatever. Just do it quietly please. Some of us are trying to fly & have fun here.

 Some will call me a fanboi, brown noser, what have you.

Like I care.

I was here before most of you & I sincerly hope to be the last one out the door when the lights are turned off.

Your milage may vary

Last as the AH Trainer Corp Lead I do have an obligation at least in my mind to be supportive of the company that has given me so much.  However beyond that even through many changes have happened that caused huge amounts of struggle to master. I have been & always will support HTC in their endevour to make the best WWII flight sim/game available.

At least I can look back over the years & see what I have accomplished with a positive feeling. Can any one of you who seemingly endlessly whines  & complains say the same?

[Buzzz]

I'm a new comer to AH but I'm also used to dealing with large corporate companies on other online games and I'm quite impressed with the way things have been handled.  

Yes... this was a sweeping change but I feel that experiements to test theories often have to be on the drastic side so as to collect good data.  As a player, I like the fact that this ENY fix was labeled from the begining as a experiment and not presented to us as "this is the way it will be from now on so deal with it."  The recent adjustments to the system offer more proof that the community is a big part of the decision making process with this game and that player's suggestions actually do get consideration.  

Originally posted by hitech

Equal sides is such a basic consept that over the life of AH the sides have maintained a fairly equal number, the reason is really simple, people have more fun when the sides are equal.

So now the question becomes not IF the sides should be equal,
but how to accomplish that equality with least impact to the social apspect of the game.


HiTech

Since you asked... it seems like the problems of "hoarding" and  "land grabbing or blitzing the other country off the map" are two seperate issues and would require two seperate fixes.

Hoarding seems to come in the form of an overwhelming swarm of planes upping from the closest base and pounding the nearest enemy base.

Has it been suggested that the ENY of airfields be limited instead of limiting individual aircraft?  

It seems like a airfield would have a finite amount of planes, support personel, and resources.  The more advanced the plane the larger the drain on these resources.  These resources would be the limit as to how many aircraft could operate from that field.  (As aircraft were destroyed, disabled, or landed at other bases, resources would be freed up at that airfield and more aircraft would be allowed to launch.)

The end result would be to cap on the number of aircraft that can up from a particualr field.  This would limit the amount of aircraft operating in that immediate vicinity and force a team with vastly greater numbers to be spread out over a wider area since they would have to operate from several different fields.

If one force wanted to throw 3 times as many aircraft into a particular battle than the opposing force had, they could still do so but only if they co-ordinated and timed their attack so that all groups coming from their respective airfields arrived on scene at exactly the same time.    

The problem of land grab might be resolved by requiring a list of strategic objectives to be fulfilled in order to force a reset by destroying infrastrcture and siezing a large capitol city.  This way bases would not figure into the equation at all except as a way to easier faciliate fulfilling these objectives.  (As in chess... where it's not how many pieces you have left on the board but how you use them to capture the king.)

-Buzzz

[kj714]

"Hitech works 6 days a week long hours on what must be done. And comes in sundays to do the "fun" stuff."

Whaaat? I bet HT rides around in a Limo in Dallas romancing long legged silicone enhanced Texas girls. Skuzzy prolly driving.

[blutic]

I have been here awhile. HTC has always been forthright in the changes they have made. Maybe this wasnt a good one, maybe it was. But Ghosth is right, play the game! The adjustments will be made'

Stay Up;
Blutik

[baine1]

Originally posted by phookat
No, it's not "because you are logged on" that you are denied, it's because you as a group chose to join the team with the most numbers.  If your group joined the team with the least numbers, you'd get to fly what you want, and you could still organize that mission as a group.

At some point, you're going to have to face the fact that numbers do not imply teamwork, and neither does teamwork imply numbers.

Maybe my definition of teamwork is wrong,  I always did poorly on 4th grade vocabulary, but I'd say a group of people agreeing to work together in a particular way to achieve a particular goal is teamwork.

Maybe you missed that in my earlier post.

Hoarding, on the other hand, I define as a loose mob following the pack with no real purpose.

I can see where that would get some people angry/upset/frustrated. I can see why HTC would want to try to come up with a way to discourage it. I don't think this is the way.

 If the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor, you'll quickly figure out that an La5 or P-51B will do the job just as well as their younger brothers.

I've already pointed out the myriad problems I see with this new system. No need to beat that horse again.

[Morpheus]

I think its ironic that these people who cry about the new eny system are the same people who remain on the side with the most numbers when changing sides was never restricted. More so it was encouraged.

You people are forgeting the fact that this is a game. It will NEVER be anything more than that no matter how hard you try. And if you are logging in and finding that you can't fly the plane you want to because your country constantly has high numbers AND this is making you upset... Why dont you get up and do something about it? Is sitting there not doing anything but complaining doing any bit of good? No its not. The MA is unballanced, there isn't one person here that can deny that. When things in the game just arent fun for you because you can't fly the planes you want to fly you need to go to or do what it takes to allow you to have the fun you wish to have and fly the planes you werent able to fly.

There are many squads that are VERY big. Yet they have remained on the same side for years and years. They speak of how much the help out the community of AH. It would only take 1 or two squads moving around to the side with consistantly lower numbers to honestly HELP out the community. I know many of the squads who have been on the same side for a very long time feel some loyalty to that side but many times change is good, and a change like this would be good.

On another positive note in regards to your squad changing sides. You will be able to fly with people whome you flown against. Fly against people you've flown with. Learn new tactics, learn how the other guy does it. Just have fun.

[LtPillur]

Originally posted by Buzzz


Has it been suggested that the ENY of airfields be limited instead of limiting individual aircraft?  

It seems like a airfield would have a finite amount of planes, support personel, and resources.  The more advanced the plane the larger the drain on these resources.  These resources would be the limit as to how many aircraft could operate from that field.  (As aircraft were destroyed, disabled, or landed at other bases, resources would be freed up at that airfield and more aircraft would be allowed to launch.)

The end result would be to cap on the number of aircraft that can up from a particualr field.  This would limit the amount of aircraft operating in that immediate vicinity and force a team with vastly greater numbers to be spread out over a wider area since they would have to operate from several different fields.

If one force wanted to throw 3 times as many aircraft into a particular battle than the opposing force had, they could still do so but only if they co-ordinated and timed their attack so that all groups coming from their respective airfields arrived on scene at exactly the same time.    

I've often felt this might be the ultimate solution. It makes for good team play, as coordination from a limited base would have to be done with an open base. There would be no limitation on the aircraft upped from any field just total numbers. And for those seeking realism... well it seems more realistic to have a limited number of planes from any base. It always looks cool when a mission involves 30 P-38's. But it makes it rough on game play, which is really what it is all about. If you could only up 15 P-38's from one field and 15 from another it would make missions more challenging and maybe more enjoyable, without limiting the plane types involved. It doesn't take a lot of skill to take a horde of planes and a goon to take over an isolated base. Now try doing it with the added "problem" of doing it from 2 or even 3 bases.Wow, I think I rambled.
Peace
Pillur

[MOIL]

OK ok,  I guess I have to chime in here and try and figure this out.

I still don't understand what happens with "ENY" {what ever that is}

And why does it effect what plane one what's to fly ? Does it cost {perks} more?

I know the arena has screamed about uneven numbers on a given side, but why does this make someone want to switch to another country?

I don't fly planes so this is all pretty foreign to me:confused:

Just curious, thanks

[TequilaChaser]

Where is all them #'s people, the ones that keep posting with the numbers, as in Rooks have this many squads, this many loyal to this country and some are just primary and jump around, knights have this many loyal full time, and this many primary but move around and so on...etc....for the Rook Squads that moved from Bish & Knight to Rook, with in the past Year and stayed Rook,  to me I see you as the biggest problem as for the numbers issue, granted though the numbers do fluctuate alot through out every given day....there is no simple problem solving answer......it does not matter what choice is picked to remedy this someone will always be upset with it regardless


so what is is then, one country has a lot more squads then another, then they have more primary than the rest, well the thing is the country with the most sure don't want to move, because they love the advantage of being overwhelming the odds. Yet that is fair to them and it isn't fair to take away their planes so they can be overwhelming, as for RJO ...heck that might happen once or twice a month or so but from all the times I have flown it seemed like they had practice nights every day/night it wasn't an RJO......


You say go and start recruiting get more people,  to that I say how do you pull people from a numerically overwhelming country that don't want to voluntarily move to start with. That is the whole reason they are there. so they have the numbers, and do not want or have to fight on even ground.


What is wrong also with staying with a country you feel  loyal too?  I never seen people change  or even have to change before,  The Damned will not change because of #'s we will only change if everyone in our group think that we should on our terms.....not because we are outnumbered and we desire to be on the overwhelming side, not because if too many move to knights and we become the new overwhelming country, or any other time.

btw...I am not upset with any changes, I don't let it bother me, I understand this is hitech's house and we play by his rules.

I do like one reply I saw though, why don't hitech / HTC just reset the whole shebang and we start a new and see how every individual/group/squad sorts itself out.

Also,  I miss them poll's / questions / surveys HTC use to put up  that you had to answer when you would log on at times, I thought that was a good thing,.
Maybe if that had happened here, before the change was instituted, that  people would have thought that everybody that flys would have voted, and the vote was for the change...majority ruled.  With this the community would of had the say, and noone could really complain.....because the community voted it in. I am rambling now...sorry

oh yeah, I also do not think squads that have been with a certain country for a significant time should have to move, from any country all be it Rook, Knight or Bish.....I think it might level out if some of the squads that country hop every tour picked a country and stayed there it would help.  And as for recruiting people you should recruit someone if they fit with your groups style, not just to increase numbers, for body count.....
if you do then you end up later on down the road having falling outs and flame wars etc......people should fly with a squad for a good while before accepting to be invited as well......don't do the hastily jump into a squad just to find out ya don't mix well.


I would really like to know, if every single squad had every single member flying at the same time and every other non squad person flying at the same time, which country would actually have the most players?

I apologize to anyone if you think I offended you

[Ghosth]

VERY well posted TC, thank you sir!