Author Topic: Best Climb Speed Con't for Nashwan (Read 12754 times)

Karnak · « **Reply #165 on:** August 30, 2004, 10:26:33 AM »

Crump,

I don't know. I'd been maintaining the whole time that the Fw190 would outclimb the Spit at higher speeds with 250mph to 260mph as my guestimated crossover point and you'd been maintaining that I was wrong and the Fw190 would outclimb it at 182mph.

It was never about wether or not there was a point at which it would, it was about the point at which it would.

Crumpp · « **Reply #166 on:** August 30, 2004, 12:55:49 PM »

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I don't know. I'd been maintaining the whole time that the Fw190 would outclimb the Spit at higher speeds with 250mph to 260mph as my guestimated crossover point and you'd been maintaining that I was wrong and the Fw190 would outclimb it at 182mph.

I was definately wrong in that I thought it would outclimb it at 182mph. You were correct on the speeds you guessed for sure.

When I started the thread I knew the higher climb speed was an advantage. I just didn't know how much of one or when it came into play. When I researched it, I misunderstood the graphics and how the curve is adjusted to represent climb, it is a different shaped power curve than what is my "Fundamentals of Flight" textbook (getting a pilots certification) and what HTC uses. With that misunderstanding and the correct definitions lead me to the wrong conclusion of all the way to best climb speed and angle.

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1. Get speration to make sure you are out of guns range. [2. Hold speed to around 300 in a sustained climb.
3. When alt / E advantage has been gained reverse over the top and rope the spit.
4. If spit choose to go into a max rate climb (the correct counter manuver) just leave and find another fight.

Hitech

Exactly. Most pilots will follow directly in the chase too.
Thanks Hitech.

niknak · « **Reply #167 on:** September 05, 2004, 06:14:49 PM »

I would argue that no experienced spit pilot would follow a FW in a sustained climb at 300mph for long enough to lose angles. The spit pilot would quickly see the FW increasing seperation and accept that he will not be able to catch the FW and climb so if the FW pilot was to reverse he would be in the superior position.

I will concede though it allows the FW to run away without gaining to much extra seperation, giving the spit pilot the oppertunity to make a mistake and get himself killed. The FW chooses to disengage while still giving himself the oppertunity of the kill.

I would add finally that the speed difference would not be significant so the FW pilot would need to sure of the 2 planes respective energy levels and also have a good seperation intially.

I will add finally that i have never won or lost a fight in a scenario similar to the one outlined.

Angus · « **Reply #168 on:** September 09, 2004, 09:05:32 AM »

Does anyone have a graph where this analyzed data shows where the lines cross?

justin_g · « **Reply #169 on:** September 09, 2004, 03:39:32 PM »

Nobody has done anything like that here(calculating a graph based on real data). My graph was a rough guide based on measured performance in AH which was then adjusted to match known performance figures from the real thing.

Angus · « **Reply #170 on:** September 09, 2004, 05:16:43 PM »

I'm pretty sure HTC's archives are fat with real data, and somewhat processed.

Crumpp · « **Reply #171 on:** September 11, 2004, 09:19:13 AM »

Problem is that the FW-190A's equal or exceed the Merlin 61 Spitfire Mk IX climb rate at almost all speeds.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/bf274climb.gif

Only when using combat rating does the Spitfire have a climb advantage and it does not last throughtout the flight envelope.
It is only a 5 min rating.

Even with combat boost the climbs are much closer than the Merlin 66 (+25).

FW-190A8 which has a 10 minute rating W/O C3 "emergency power" and unlimited with it. This FW-190A8 is also the heaviest fighter version complete with the removeable 115 liter tank.

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190-1.jpg

FW-190A5 @ 1.32ata (it can use 1.42ata for 3 minutes and I suspect it was cleared for 30 minutes at 1.42ata but I don't have the paperwork to prove it yet)

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190_A5_climb_s.gif

Crumpp

MiloMorai · « **Reply #172 on:** September 11, 2004, 10:18:48 AM »

Climb to 6km(19,686ft) took 7.5 minutes @ 2700rpm, 1.42ata for the 190.

The Merlin 61 Mk IX took 6.5 mins to 20,000 ft.(nominal power)

For 2700rpm, 1.58/1.65, the 190 took 6.8min to reach 6km.

The 61 engined Spit IX took 5.6 mins to 20,000 ft.(combat rating)

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html

Crumpp · « **Reply #173 on:** September 11, 2004, 10:35:53 AM »

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Climb to 6km(19,686ft) took 7.5 minutes @ 2700rpm, 1.42ata for the 190.

Which FW-190?

And

You need to examine the curves. The climb rates are very close. Expecially when you factor in the Spits boost restrictions.

Crumpp

MiloMorai · « **Reply #174 on:** September 11, 2004, 10:43:13 AM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp
Which FW-190?

The A-8.

Do you not know what is on the A-8 graph you link to?

MiloMorai · « **Reply #175 on:** September 11, 2004, 10:53:32 AM »

Can you add the climb times for the A-8 for comparison?

Standard Height(feet)   - Time from start mins
Sea level - 0
2,000 -   0.6
5,000 -   1.6
6,500 - 2.0
10,000 - 3.1
13,500 - 4.2
15,000 - 4.7
16,500 - 5.2
18,000 - 5.8
20,000 - 6.5
23,000 - 7.7
25,900 - 8.9
28,000 - 9.7
30,000 - 10.7
33,000 - 12.4
36,000 - 14.7
38,000 - 16.9
40,000 - 20.2

These are for Normal rating

Crumpp · « **Reply #176 on:** September 11, 2004, 11:05:55 AM »

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The A-8.

Yeah and there are TWO graphs posted. I suppose in your little mind that was bad question huh?

The FW-190 equals the Spitfire in some altitude bands and in some outclimbs the Spitfire Merlin 61. In other the Spitfire outclimbs the FW-190.

Start plotting some individual climb rates and you will see.

The rates only a vary a little bit.

The Merlin 61 was not an outstanding climber like it's older brother the Merlin 66 (+25). It was just average.

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #177 on:** September 11, 2004, 11:49:43 AM »

Here you can see it here.

http://www.netaces.org/ahmain/siteframe.html#title

Just overlay the graphs.

Especially with FW-190A5 which has a very large area.

Crumpp

justin_g · « **Reply #178 on:** September 11, 2004, 12:03:46 PM »

Heres a graph combining all 3 graphs Crummp linked to at the continuous ratings mentioned.

Btw, there is a USN Fw 190G-3(A-5) test with climb and speed graphs for 1.42ata, I d/l it once but I dont have it anymore. Anyone got it?

EDIT: the climbrate data on netaces is from the HTC charts, which are for AH1 performance. IIRC, in AH1 the Fw 190A-5 climb & speed performance was spot on the aforementioned USN test.

Crumpp · « **Reply #179 on:** September 11, 2004, 12:06:58 PM »

I have a US Navy test of the FW-190A5/U4 (which became the G series). It includes climb trials vs Hellcat and F4U4 but no graph.

They had lots of engine trouble with the FW-190A5 in it. Seems the BMW-801D did not like USAVGAS.

Crumpp