Author Topic: HO Please explain why  (Read 838 times)

Offline TheBeeg

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HO Please explain why
« on: August 22, 2004, 02:10:52 PM »
I've been flight simming for about 6 years in FA, AH, WB and WW2OL  There seems to be what I perceive to be some kind of urban legend that a head on attack is somewhat akin to having a romantic relationship with one's mother.  What gives?  At least from a historical perspective, it is my understanding that Dick Bong whom I understand to be America's #1 scoring ace during the war used the head on as his primary tactic.  Ofcourse he flew a P38 with all his nastiness right in the nose and the maneuverability of a pallet of bricks so it's understandable.  I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea.  I say kill the bastage at the first opportunity and go on with my life.  This isn't a troll I'm really curious about what makes this such a hot topic.  Until I get a satisfactory answer believe me, I'm gonna spit in your face before you do it to me :D

TheBeeg

Offline B17Skull12

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2004, 02:17:07 PM »
lets put it this way who ever is stupid enough to HO a spit Mkv or anyone plane with hizooka's or a 190A8/110G2 deserve to die.
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline eskimo2

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Re: HO Please explain why
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2004, 03:15:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBeeg
I've been flight simming for about 6 years in FA, AH, WB and WW2OL  There seems to be what I perceive to be some kind of urban legend that a head on attack is somewhat akin to having a romantic relationship with one's mother.  What gives?  At least from a historical perspective, it is my understanding that Dick Bong whom I understand to be America's #1 scoring ace during the war used the head on as his primary tactic.  Ofcourse he flew a P38 with all his nastiness right in the nose and the maneuverability of a pallet of bricks so it's understandable.  I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea.  I say kill the bastage at the first opportunity and go on with my life.  This isn't a troll I'm really curious about what makes this such a hot topic.  Until I get a satisfactory answer believe me, I'm gonna spit in your face before you do it to me :D

TheBeeg


I agree.

eskimo

Offline Dennis

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2004, 03:23:28 PM »
I think its looked upon with disdain as a tactic because it's perceived that it takes far less talent/knowledge to point your nose at an oncoming plane and spray than it does to maneuver onto an opponent's six or gain another angle for a shootdown.

Clearly it was used with regularity irl ... because those guys weren't generally interested in the 'challenge' of the dogfight or energy fight or angles fight (or whatever) -- they were interested in killing the bad guy before he kilt them.

It's a bit of a conundrum, I know.  But it's probably rooted at least partly in the differences with which players approach this game.  When the differing schools of thought cross paths, somebody gets pissed off.

Personally, I rarely take the HO shot.  I've discovered I generallly suck at it, and I am (almost) always in the plane with a gun package poorly suited for the task.  i.e. no cannon, low-calibre mg's, low ammo load, poor hitting power, short convergence, etc.  Plus, net lag really messes with my judgment on the shot.

But mostly ... I'm one of those who relishes the 'dogfight' over the 'hit and run.'

What really gets me is the guys who complain about it on ch1, then do it themselves.

Splash1

Offline Soulyss

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2004, 03:33:12 PM »
I think Dennis just about summed it up.  I usually avoid the head on shot for a couple reasons, A) I suck at them... dunno why I just can't hit squat.  B)  I'm usually fairly confident I have at least a 50/50 chance of out manuvering my oponent for a less dangerous shot.  

That being said there are times when I will take it.  To me factors like the firepower of my plane and durability vs my oponent.  If I'm in a hellcat I'll HO a zeke since I feel a have a decent chance of coming out on top.  It's like any other attribute of my plane, just like speed, climb, turn, etc.

On the other hand I've been on the other side when I've been working the dogfight, getting the angles and I can see that I'm going to end up behind him and have a shot when suddenly (and it always seems like spits for some reason) the guy chops throttle and haules his nose up at me and starts spraying.  And yes I do get mad when that happens.  Usually not enough to start pissing and moaning on channel 1, most my smack talk gets filtered by the screen.  But yeah it seems like a cop out to me, espcially against a less experienced adversary... "damnit I'm better than that guy I should beat him, he cheated by taking the HO..." sort of  mentality.  

Course I've been the newb enough times to understand if someone is flying rings around me I'm going to take whatever shot I can get.... a 50/50 head on is better odds than if I fought the "good fight" against some of these people. :)
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Offline TheBeeg

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2004, 04:03:39 PM »
Thanks.

You and Dennis have clarified a couple of things.  Since I'm of the school which says kill the bastages and let God sort them out, I suspect I'll continue taking whatever kind of shot I can to send them to Nirvana.  

As far as outmaneuvering them, there's another conumdrum (like that word) running around in my head.  How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh?  And believe me I'm not the only RL pilot who will tell you that.  I suspect that it has to do with the fact that the flight modeling in here is so simplified that it actually boils down to the skills required to play any video game.  Since my original video game was PONG you can probably surmise that my hand-eye coordination is somewhat dulled so that's another reason why I'm gonna keep killing them any way I can.  :lol

TheBeeg

Quote
Originally posted by Soulyss
I think Dennis just about summed it up.  I usually avoid the head on shot for a couple reasons, A) I suck at them... dunno why I just can't hit squat.  B)  I'm usually fairly confident I have at least a 50/50 chance of out manuvering my oponent for a less dangerous shot.  

That being said there are times when I will take it.  To me factors like the firepower of my plane and durability vs my oponent.  If I'm in a hellcat I'll HO a zeke since I feel a have a decent chance of coming out on top.  It's like any other attribute of my plane, just like speed, climb, turn, etc.

On the other hand I've been on the other side when I've been working the dogfight, getting the angles and I can see that I'm going to end up behind him and have a shot when suddenly (and it always seems like spits for some reason) the guy chops throttle and haules his nose up at me and starts spraying.  And yes I do get mad when that happens.  Usually not enough to start pissing and moaning on channel 1, most my smack talk gets filtered by the screen.  But yeah it seems like a cop out to me, espcially against a less experienced adversary... "damnit I'm better than that guy I should beat him, he cheated by taking the HO..." sort of  mentality.  

Course I've been the newb enough times to understand if someone is flying rings around me I'm going to take whatever shot I can get.... a 50/50 head on is better odds than if I fought the "good fight" against some of these people. :)

Offline eskimo2

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2004, 04:11:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBeeg
Thanks.

You and Dennis have clarified a couple of things.  Since I'm of the school which says kill the bastages and let God sort them out, I suspect I'll continue taking whatever kind of shot I can to send them to Nirvana.  

As far as outmaneuvering them, there's another conumdrum (like that word) running around in my head.  How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh?  And believe me I'm not the only RL pilot who will tell you that.  I suspect that it has to do with the fact that the flight modeling in here is so simplified that it actually boils down to the skills required to play any video game.  Since my original video game was PONG you can probably surmise that my hand-eye coordination is somewhat dulled so that's another reason why I'm gonna keep killing them any way I can.  :lol

TheBeeg


Partially true, but the main difference is that it takes a completely different skill set to dogfight than to fly IRL.
I have thousands of hours experience driving cars.  That does not mean that IRL I could win a car race, or beat an experienced 13 year old kid at a car racing game.  

eskimo

Offline lasersailor184

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2004, 04:18:40 PM »
First pass HO is forbidden in my book.  But once you pass for the first time, anything is fair game.
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Offline Redd

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Re: HO Please explain why
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2004, 06:00:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBeeg
I've been flight simming for about 6 years in FA, AH, WB and WW2OL  There seems to be what I perceive to be some kind of urban legend that a head on attack is somewhat akin to having a romantic relationship with one's mother.  What gives?  At least from a historical perspective, it is my understanding that Dick Bong whom I understand to be America's #1 scoring ace during the war used the head on as his primary tactic.  Ofcourse he flew a P38 with all his nastiness right in the nose and the maneuverability of a pallet of bricks so it's understandable.  I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea.  I say kill the bastage at the first opportunity and go on with my life.  This isn't a troll I'm really curious about what makes this such a hot topic.  Until I get a satisfactory answer believe me, I'm gonna spit in your face before you do it to me :D

TheBeeg



Search help and training under HO and you'll find this question asked and answered a number of times. New guys ask this question a lot. You'll find lots of help in there on both avoiding head-ons and what you should be doing instead of going for the HO.


The single biggest reason why not to take a HO shot is  -  Why would you take any  option in a fight that gives your opponent an equal or better opportunity of killing you ?

There is always a better option !
I come from a land downunder

Offline Redd

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2004, 06:10:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheBeeg
Thanks.

You and Dennis have clarified a couple of things.  Since I'm of the school which says kill the bastages and let God sort them out, I suspect I'll continue taking whatever kind of shot I can to send them to Nirvana.  

As far as outmaneuvering them, there's another conumdrum (like that word) running around in my head.  How come somebody like me who has over 3,000 hrs. flying in real airplanes doesn't get any benefit whatsoever in these sims huh?  And believe me I'm not the only RL pilot who will tell you that.  I suspect that it has to do with the fact that the flight modeling in here is so simplified that it actually boils down to the skills required to play any video game.  Since my original video game was PONG you can probably surmise that my hand-eye coordination is somewhat dulled so that's another reason why I'm gonna keep killing them any way I can.  :lol

TheBeeg



It's very possible and likely that the reason they keep out-maneuvering you, is because  you are going for HO's.

It's a vicious circle , you  go for HO , you lose position and angles immediately, handing the advantage to your opponent.  The well timed lead turn is probably the most important basic skill in the game (not just TnB , E-fighting as well ) you cannot lead turn and make a HO attack, they are mutually exclusive.
I come from a land downunder

Offline eskimo2

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Re: Re: HO Please explain why
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2004, 06:12:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Redd
Search help and training under HO and you'll find this question asked and answered a number of times. New guys ask this question a lot. You'll find lots of help in there on both avoiding head-ons and what you should be doing instead of going for the HO.


The single biggest reason why not to take a HO shot is  -  Why would you take any  option in a fight that gives your opponent an equal or better opportunity of killing you ?

There is always a better option !


Sometimes it is clearly the best choice.  A prime example is a 1:2 knifefight against 2 good planes/pilots.  If you are in this situation, you are very likely to lose.  By taking the HO, you stand a 50:50 (or better or worse) chance of turning the odds to 1:1, where you may stand a fair to good chance of winning.

Most of the 1:2, 1:3, & 1:4 situations that I have won, I have eliminated at least 1 con with a HO.  The worse the odds, the more important it becomes to even the odds as soon as possible.

eskimo

Offline Reschke

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2004, 06:24:53 PM »
Personally I am with TheBeeg on this one. I call myself a fair to average virtual pilot simply because I get impatient and don't always have hours and hours to "hone" my "leet skillz" online as some other players do regualrly. With that said I don't care if its a 1 vs 1 or a 1 vs 10 I am going to take any and all shots that present themselves unless I am in a "competition" that specifically calls for no HO shots before the first merge. Because in AH arenas you will be outnumbered rather quickly and most likely will be low and slow if you stay in a protracted "dogfight". So I think its best to use whatever is available if your primary goal of playing these games is to return to base "alive" more times than your "enemy".
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Offline Redd

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Re: Re: Re: HO Please explain why
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2004, 06:24:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Sometimes it is clearly the best choice.  A prime example is a 1:2 knifefight against 2 good planes/pilots.  If you are in this situation, you are very likely to lose.  By taking the HO, you stand a 50:50 (or better or worse) chance of turning the odds to 1:1, where you may stand a fair to good chance of winning.

Most of the 1:2, 1:3, & 1:4 situations that I have won, I have eliminated at least 1 con with a HO.  The worse the odds, the more important it becomes to even the odds as soon as possible.

eskimo


You are correct , in that situation, but I was responding to his question which more relates to a 1-1  engagement/merge. He is more sounding like someone who uses it at merges as his first option/priority.



"I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea "


Outnumbered and down and dirty you take any option presented of course.
I come from a land downunder

Offline TheBeeg

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Re: Re: Re: Re: HO Please explain why
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2004, 07:22:58 PM »
No, no, no Redd, you may have misunderstood what I said or maybe I didn't express it correctly.  I don't go looking for the HO (e.g. maneuver to get in front of you), I just don't shy away from it because of some taboo which still eludes me.  One person (forgive me, I forgot who) mentioned that somewhere in the help it might be explained but everybody else is still talking about why they do it or why they don't but nobody has said something to the effect that it gives this guy or that guy the advantage because the packets go backwards when you're higher than your oponent or something like that.  What I will say is that unless somebody can prove to me that because of some definitive reason the HO shot is unsportsmanslike then come at me directly and you get a mouth full of lead, ok? :D
Beeg

Quote
Originally posted by Redd
You are correct , in that situation, but I was responding to his question which more relates to a 1-1  engagement/merge. He is more sounding like someone who uses it at merges as his first option/priority.



"I personally like the head on attack whenever I'm in a less maneuverable airplane and most specially when the enemy comes straight at me giving me no choice but to fire or attempt to side swerve out of his way which to me isn't a good idea "


Outnumbered and down and dirty you take any option presented of course.

Offline X2Lee

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HO Please explain why
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2004, 07:34:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Partially true, but the main difference is that it takes a completely different skill set to dogfight than to fly IRL.
I have thousands of hours experience driving cars.  That does not mean that IRL I could win a car race, or beat an experienced 13 year old kid at a car racing game.  

eskimo


No the video portion of his post is absolutely true.
AH will give you a million bad habits for real flying
its like,    how to put this      


playing a video game.