Favorite Moves in a 109?

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Kweassa
The 109s in AH2, are one of the planes that received the most dramatic levels of inhibition in its ability to maneuver. Clearly, something has happened to its FM, which other planes do not suffer at the same level.

 In AH1, one solid fact the 109 had in maneuvering was that it was responsive and very stable.

 It couldn't turn as well as some planes, but maneuvering at extremely low speeds was not too hard. Also, while it wasn't a very good turning plane, it was always decent compared to its contemporaries.

 While suffering from torque, still the powerful engine enabled it to chug and hang on through the low-speeds and keep maneuvering. You could really push this plane to the limits. While at normal speeds a P-51 or P-47 might be able to temporarily outmaneuver it thanks to early flap usage, but when the speeds came down low the favor was turned to the 109. It would handily outturn a P-47, and outturn the P-51 with some hard effort.

 In AH2, all of this is gone. The stability is down to crap levels. You will get outturned in a sustained, prolonged turn fight against a P-47 in a Bf109G-2, because at lower speeds the Bf109G-2 cannot keep a turn radius tight enough to chase a P-47. Why can't it do that?

 For starters, at speeds of over 300mph, the P-47 can use the flaps earlier than the 109. It also deccelerates faster - which considering the two factors, makes it possible for the P-47 to maintain at least a same turn radius with the opposing 109. Experts with better rudder/flap management will often even outturn the 109. Okay - no problems with this part.

 What happens when the speed drops under 300, and reaches the border line of 199 and 200mph? Well, according to theory and anecdotes, the 109 should be a plane that outturns the P-47 pretty handily.

 However, even when the 109 successfully chops its own speed down to use its own flaps - at least the relative advantages of the P-47 with its flaps should be gone, right? Afterall, the P-47 is a behemoth of a plane.

 Well, that's not in AH2. While under 200mph, the P-47 with some 2~3 notches of flaps, can hang at the border of its stall limit speed, and keep pulling a tight turn radius.

 In a P-47, with about 2 notches of flaps down, with full throttle - you can start a turn that does not gain or lose alt, with heavy rudder assist, and can pull hard enough so that the speed bleeds down to about 100mph and keep it there. In other words, a very tight turn sacrificing speed, hanging by a thread just above the stall speed.

 However, the 109 can't do that. When it drops down to low speeds and uses its own flaps, in 109s, you can't pull the stick with full throttle and initiate a turn hard enough to bleed its own speed down to 100mph. Somewhere near 180mph it loses stability and wobbles.

 In a sustained turn fight, the P-47 keeps its nose pointed towards you, and despite the slow speed, it still hangs on to the turn. The 109, can't keep its nose pointed towards the P-47  in the first place.

 
 In other words, 109s are pigs in low speed maneuvering now. So, don't go down to low speed, and don't try any reversals.

 I've felt a crushing blow to my ego in the fact that I can't outmaneuver a La-7 even with initial E advantage, in a Bf109G, I've been using for years.

I know I am way out of practice and I'm still working the rust loose.  But the 109 has always been my favored ride, especially the 109F4 or the 109G2.  Since I got the new computer up and running, and I have started playing again, I have noticed the dramatic change in the 109's handling.  The other night in a G10, I went up against a co-alt P47 and was in for a huge shock.  Admittedly my opponent handled his plane well (much better than I was with my 109), but I was counting on the performance characteristics to equal things out.  Before I knew it, while I had managed to avoid dying right off the bat, I had lost both ailerons, my flaps were out, I had oil all over my windscreen, and my canopy resembled a chunk of swiss cheese.  By keeping the nose up in the turns and using the climbing ability of the 109 (why didnt I remember that at the outset!?!), in combination with the rudder balancing me, i managed to stay alive for awhile and even get off a couple of snapshots (that did little to no damage unfortunately).  I even managed enough separation in the climing spiral move to get off a couple of loops.  In the end though, I just plain lost control.  I certainly couldnt out turn him, I had to rely on vertical separation and come down on him for the few shots I got.  One thing I did notice that really got my attention was how much I lost control if I engaged the flaps.  One notch and she started wobbling.  2 notches and she went out of control.  Letting the flaps back up at very low speed though caused an even worse loss of control (which I believe is an accurate model, dont quote me as my real flying hours are very small and Ive never been in that type of situation or even discussed it with an instructor.......i just seem to remember hearing somewhere its a very bad idea to raise flaps at very low speed, especially if in a turn).

[humble]

Vudak...

The G2is easily the best 109 in every way but pure power...the key to doing well in it is recognizing "relative" position and acting accordingly...for example...the double E is a great positive E merge in any plane...the 109 does it very well because of its climb and acc rate...but so does a Jug or a hog with enough E. In a co-e merge with a spit IX you'll probably get caught at the top of the double by any good stick. The 109 has exceptional vertical rudder authority so its an awesome roper...most good 109 drivers fight in the "veritcal oblique" (basically steep hi yoyo's...your looking for a bunch of canopy snapshots. One key to the 109 is using the throttle to manage speed for shot windows. you can carry to much speed in verticals and "stiffen" handling easily. I'd avoid any type of "flat turning" and work the fight up not down...

[Happy1]

Bozon & humble

U guys are gd pilots, have lots of expertise under ur belts, could u pls post SOME OF UR AH2 FILMS in any warplane model so that
some of the average & beginning pilots learn from u?

Ur kind consideration & films are gratefully solicited  

Cheers,

Happy1  

[Krusty]

Well, speaking of 109 favorite moves...


The 109 at speed is such a great zoom climber that I'll often break straight up at the merge, and then keep going up, not pulling around. I'll do a lazy turn, look back to see where the enemy is, roll my canopy to face it then lazily pull back, thus pulling into the direction of the other plane. Works a lot if the enemy either can't climb as fast, or is so intent on pulling hard Gs to kill you that he blows his speed on a tight loop/turn. Good for the occasional situation advantage. Got me on more than one tail while I was in a 109.

[EDIT] I don't mean a rope.

What I mean is say the enemy is in a spit, and is so eager to kill you he thinks you are going to pull up and shoot him asap, but you don't. You keep going past where he expected you to be, and he's already turned but you are not there.

More like a vertical overshoot.

[humble]

Getting and keeping the "high ground" is the key in the 109 (really in all of em:))...combination of rudder control & wep gives 109 capability to set up multiple vertical passes unless con is smart enough to compress you and run like a scalded dog...

[bozon]

Originally posted by Happy1
Bozon & humble

U guys are gd pilots, have lots of expertise under ur belts, could u pls post SOME OF UR AH2 FILMS in any warplane model so that
some of the average & beginning pilots learn from u?

Actually, in AHII I'm doing a lot worse in the jug than in AHI, inspite of the claim that P47s have turned into firebolts...

I blame this on my lac of practice (24H is not enough to live AND play AH apparently) and the improved skill level of many 'not-entirely-new' pilots. I actually like it that way. Getting shot down in a good fight is much better than poping 6-7 clueless newbies.

I have very few films from AHII (few sorties that I fly and even fewer that I've filmed). Ack-Ack and lev have been posting great AHII films and they are truely great. check them out.
If I find any worthy film I'll post it, but I doubt it will be as instructive or as good.

Bozon

[humble]

Originally posted by Happy1
Bozon & humble

U guys are gd pilots, have lots of expertise under ur belts, could u pls post SOME OF UR AH2 FILMS in any warplane model so that
some of the average & beginning pilots learn from u?

Ur kind consideration & films are gratefully solicited  

Cheers,

Happy1  

Happy...

I'll be happy to look thru what I have in AH2...films are always good but you need to know what your looking at. I try and find clips that deal with a specific scenario and utilize BFM/ACM vs "pilot stuff". Once you see and understand the underlying geometry and energy management then your better positioned to use your "stick skills"...even now I'll look at some of the clips and go wow...you just flew his prettythang off...why cant I do that...or wow you got an air traffic controller in your head...how you keep all that SA straight...or wow where do I get that lazermatice mark IV gunnery system:(