Author Topic: Aces Horde  (Read 3666 times)

Offline A_Clown

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Aces Horde
« on: September 16, 2004, 01:29:55 PM »
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there...  Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.

It seems gone are the days when people played the game for Air Combat, Now it seems people play for points, or stats, or the joy of watching buildings pop,  to see how fast them & 20 wingmen can kill 3 low defenders.

I was glad to see AH find a cure for the numbers problem, but it seems that they only changed the circumstances, & not the player mentality which was apparently the actaul cause for the game imbalance.

I dont know what the cure is, but I can say that the gameplay problem is far from over, IMO.

Summer is coming to an end, I sure hope the players bring the gameplay up a notch before winter sets in and we all spend alot more time flying.

A_Clown

Offline jay1988

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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2004, 01:49:20 PM »
I was thinking. If we have more countries then it wont be a 20 on 3 furball because the countries would have less peeps playing. just a thought

Offline SlapShot

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Re: Aces Horde
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 02:33:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by A_Clown
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there...  Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.

It seems gone are the days when people played the game for Air Combat, Now it seems people play for points, or stats, or the joy of watching buildings pop,  to see how fast them & 20 wingmen can kill 3 low defenders.

I was glad to see AH find a cure for the numbers problem, but it seems that they only changed the circumstances, & not the player mentality which was apparently the actaul cause for the game imbalance.

I dont know what the cure is, but I can say that the gameplay problem is far from over, IMO.

Summer is coming to an end, I sure hope the players bring the gameplay up a notch before winter sets in and we all spend alot more time flying.

A_Clown


I couldn't agree with you more ... I only have 11+ hours in this tour. That is the lowest for me in almost 3 years.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline vorticon

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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 03:10:35 PM »
easy, reduce the negative effects of dying to an enemy pilot, and increase the negetive effects of avoiding enemy planes, as in you lose perkies if you dont shoot down or get shot down an/by a enemy plane each sortie.

Offline United

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2004, 03:18:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
easy, reduce the negative effects of dying to an enemy pilot, and increase the negetive effects of avoiding enemy planes, as in you lose perkies if you dont shoot down or get shot down an/by a enemy plane each sortie.

Wouldn't that add to the hording?  It would give more of a reason to horde, so you don't die as much as you would flying without a horde.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2004, 03:20:43 PM »
sorti rates, sorti rates, sorti rates.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2004, 03:51:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by vorticon
easy, reduce the negative effects of dying to an enemy pilot, and increase the negetive effects of avoiding enemy planes, as in you lose perkies if you dont shoot down or get shot down an/by a enemy plane each sortie.


What penalty is there for dying currently? None really, you just get a new plane faster. Dying is actually the easiest way to get the most trigger time per time played. Taking away perks for a sortie with no kills would just hurt the new players, they are the ones that fail to get a kill more often that not.

Zaz
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2004, 03:54:05 PM »
same watermelon different day.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WORRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline phookat

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Re: Aces Horde
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2004, 04:03:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by A_Clown
I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of AH players. All too often I log into the MA & view the map looking for a battle to engage in. Almost always, all I can find are hordes. Either my country ( I switch alot so it makes no diff which one) is being horded, or doing the hording, most often BOTH. You horde here, we horde there, & they horde over there...  Its like a big base trading mery-go-round.


Yep.  This is caused by maps which have bases that are far apart.  When bases are placed closer together, hordes are often converted to fights.

Offline RTSigma

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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2004, 04:21:25 PM »
Heaven forbid that there are safety in numbers.

There will ALWAYS been hordes, ALWAYS be vulches, ALWAYS this, and that.

Sigma of VF-17 JOLLY ROGERS

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2004, 04:25:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
same watermelon different day.


 :rofl ... Hey Morph ... what are you doing Saturday ... fancy a ride into the Big Apple ?
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2004, 04:51:55 PM »
IMO its a problem inherent in the gameplay. Some of the factors are untouchable, but others can be addressed.

 .....

 For one thing, as long as the MA is a warring arena, and not a Free-for-all Arena, you can't blame the people for using the most effective and ruthless tactic necessary for victory. Securing numbers advantage is THE basic of all basics in a winning strategy.

 I said this many times but I'll say it again - people just have to acknowledge the fact that AH isn't the "Smallville" it used to be.

 A small, friendly neighborhood where everybody knew everyone else, and people flew for pure air combat fun. That's the old days - past days. It's not gonna come back.

 AH community has grown, and the chances are 90% of the hundreds of people logged on are someone you don't know. It' a big bustling land divided by feuding Chess-piece states.

 There's a new objective that has settled into the gameplay - people fly AH to win as a part of their country, to lead their country to victory, by using vintage WW2 aircraft. Just enjoying it isn't enough. You have to win.

 Ironically, at least for the mentality of it all, its more "realistic" than ever. It's like a real war now. You fight to obliterate the opposition, not to enjoy the fight itself. The mentality of an AH gamer, is like that of a soldier. It used to be like that of a sportsman, or a honor-bound knight, or a WWI pilot - but again that's past days. This is the present.

 Basically, this part cannot be changed at all. People have to learn to live with it. Adapt to it.

 .....

 However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the warring states have to be pale and bland and brute-force-driven.

While the changes in the mentality of the AH gamer is the main reason behind all this, that does not mean the current system cannot be changed to accomodate the new fact to make it something more fun.

 The mentality of an individual AH gamer may have changed "realistically"(at least, 'real' as in 'real war-like'), but the basic system of the game remains as it is since Day-1.

 In other words, the "horde mentality" is accelerated and intensified due to the fact that the basic system is falling behind the evolution of the community and the gamer mentality.

 AH MA uses an old, dated system, while the gamers are lunging forward. The discrepancies between the human factor and the system factor are beginning to show signs of large mis-match.

 .....

 What are the factors that accelerate the "horde" (or rather, the crude tactical push dependant on brute force)?


1. Fighter Realism

 The game has become much more realistic. Gunnery is harder, which means shooting down planes take more time. You need to close in to more or less realistic distances to get a shot in.

 Having to close in means that there's a larger chance of a dangerous reversal happening. It also means the average time needed to bring down an enemy fighter has grown longer.

 The longer it takes to bring an enemy down, the longer you are exposed to danger.

 Thus, naturally, speed becomes more important than ever. Using faster planes increases the chances of chasing down and catching a running enemy plane, and lowers the threat of being caught and shot down at a vulnerable moment(you can run away).

 However, this advantage in speed is quickly neutralized as the MA is filled up with the same limited plane types - a new monopoly of the fastest planes(La-7, P-51D, and Fw190D-9). Since everybody is using the same planes now, the relative advantages are all neutralized, and the score is tied again.

 So, if performance can no longer help. then naturally, people begin to rely on the numbers factor. If every opposition you meet is in the same planes as you are, then ofcourse, you need to bring more of your guys to win.


2. Situational Realism

 Many people have been complaining that field captures were much too easy. They were absolutely right - it was too easy.

 Thus, towns first emerged in AH, then, the town grew still larger in AH2.

 However, while the destruction and suppression required to capture a field has grown, organizational levels of players stayed the same.

 Precision jabos and well-executed attacks can reduce towns to parking lots within minutes. A2A fighters divided in the roles of field suppression(vulch) and screen-CAP(stopping enemy reinforcements and escorting goon) helps capture fields. However, this is hardly expected in the MA. Since most of the players are hardly trained, barely adequate for the job, the only sure factor to win a capture is by through brute-force.

 This is a classic case of realism in one aspect, but unrealism in another aspect. The discrepancies in realism levels of requirements and individual skill, accelerated the need for the horde. Everybody sucks at lobbing bombs and doing assigned jobs. Then, there's no choice but to bring a horde of these guys.


(contd.)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2004, 05:15:29 PM »
Basically, in the way I perceive it, its not necessarily the system that creates the horde. Its the unorganized, chaotic, and lazy nature of AH gamers who just love freedom but hate responsibilities, that created the horde. In other words, its our fault.

However, the system of the game should at least try to motivate people into organizing things out, so something more than brute force can be used in the game.

 The more varied role for pilots there is in the game, the more different situations we may meet. In other words, the system should try to give people something to do, rather than do nothing, so whenever someone logs on he doesn't just go immediately join the largest green dar bar in the map.


 The basic AH system hardly intervenes to balance and organize the arena so that war-like tactics can be utilized to bring out more dynamic and fun situations.

 What I mean by this is, for example, look at Fighter Ace territorial combat. In FA, the AI system launches ground assaults in the positions it thinks it is needed, and this fact is relayed to the gamers so that they are motivated to either assist the ground assault as an attacker, or drive them back as a defender.

 Now, the system itself isn't up to much(at least, I think it sucked). However, there are many such methods to motivate self-organization.

 There are many ideas we can think about to reduce the inorganizational nature of AH gamers.

*Example of Ideas*

Idea #1

  To reduce the horde problem the system can try to adopt a "fighter squadron" or "air force" concept. Each log in, we choose for ourselves on which of the two "fronts" to join and fight. If the pilot numbers for the two fronts becomes too lopsided, the system will try to distribute and assign players into the opposite front. This will stop people from clogging into a single front to form a gang-banging horde.

 The system may calculate in certain ways to determine if things are going good or bad at a certain front - like, if a side continuously loses fields at a certain front, then the system will determine that it is losing the battle there. So, it will assign and move some of the squadrons at the another front, to come and fight at the losing front.

 If a player really wants to be transferred to another front, then he will go to the Staff building in the airfield(the O'club perhaps?), and request a transfer. If he sees another player at the front he wants to go, who wants to come to your front, then you may trade places with him.

 While this removes the freedom to move around anywhere from players, (which is probably subject of criticism to those guys who absolutely love AH freedom(which they only use as 'the freedom to ruin your own country' in most cases)), it does give an overall numbers balance to the fronts.

 Each players at each front fights with the limited number of forces they are given with. (Although they can respawn endlessly). So, they'll have to make better use of power. It also simulates the feeling of being in a real airforce, and gives some life and color to the "War".

 
Idea #2

 When the system sees an opportunity - when certain conditions are met - it might want to launch a GV strike, or a buff raid, or a sweep mission.

 The system will notify of all the pilots in the country that it wants to launch an assault at certain point. It will need volunteers for the mission, and it will set objectives and condition perimeters;

ie.

 "The HQ has decided to launch a strike to fuel refinery. 15 pilots are required in this mission. The objectives are to reach the target at 15,000 feet, start an attack, and destroy at least 50% of the fuel refinery. Successful mission will be rewarded with 30 fighter perks upon landing."

 or...

 "The HQ had decided to launch a GV strike to V37. 10 GV drivers are required in this mission. The objectives are to reach the enemy field and destroy at least one VH. Successful mission will be rewarded with 30 GV perks immediately upon mission completed."

 This will interest the people in the opportunity to participate in organized missions with specific objectives and rewards.

 Another example; the AI generated mission idea as hinted by HT, doesn't necessarily have to be exclusive in the TOD mode.

 Every half an hour or so, the "HQ" deems a certain mission is necessary. It creates a fighter sweep mission in one country, and another fighter sweep mission towards the same area, in the enemy country.

 Depending on mission participant numbers a certain objective and reward will be set. For instance, if 10 people participate in Rook side, and only 5 in Knight side, the Knight side requirements to be shoot only 30% of the Rook sweepers, while the Rook side will be required to sweep and shoot down all Knits. The target enemy planes will be highlighted in another color.

 The MA version will lack the leadership or the evaluation phases, but it will reward the player with perks upon mission accomplished, and returned home safely.


 
 .......


 I don't necessarily think the above examples can be directly used in AH. Literally they are only examples. But the point is, AH MA being transformed into a large warring environment, doesn't mean we have to play the same brute-horde push everyday. New organization, incentives, AI missions, simulating military environment and conditions, etc etc... there are many ideas that can take the huge MA numbers and competitiveness to make something better out of it.

 If people can't organize themselves, the system can at least try to help people experience something new, different, and fun - to make the best out of how AH is currently.

 As it is, while people are so competitive, the system is so passive. However, with such great numbers in the MA, the only way to get rid of the brute-force tactics is to organize the people into an effective fighting force - and this is impossible without empowering a certain individual to become the "general". The only alternative is to let the system deal out more various situations, to increase the fun factor in the warring states.

Offline Redd

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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2004, 05:19:32 PM »
yup , I actually took a couple of screenshots of this in PAC time last night.

2 of us fighting a small horde of  bish on one side of the map and a small horde of us fighting 2 rooks on the other side. I can only assume the bish and rooks were doing something similar somewhere else on the map.

The "fear of dying"  disease seems to be spreading rapidly. People head automatically for the big green dar bar , when they should be heading for the big red dar bar.
I come from a land downunder

Offline bustr

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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2004, 05:31:01 PM »
Kweassa,

We need a new breed of Leaders and Heros to match the evolution of the game. The bits and pieces I hear from the Rooks, their cooperation for the RJO was a solution by organization to the AH evolution.

To lead the new medocer players Old Hands need to step up and engage the imagination of the hoard. It is too easy to insulate ones self in your squad and long time freinds.  AH is like the local Ice Rink. You have the Old Hand In Crowd, and then the Newbs. The country channel is few dozen freinds. It could be used to reach out to the hoard. Challenge them to follow, and then deliver monumental exploits to dassel them.

If you aggressivly reach out to the hoard and be inclusive, you have an opportunity to organize them by appealling to their self interest. If they feel like part of AH, they'll follow you around and help. If they have Heros to identify with, then they have the inspiration to improve their skills.

Or the Old Hands can be appauled with the new breed of AH' ers and long for the good old days when you asked permisson to engage.

The Game is ONLY what you make of it while you are in it!
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.