Author Topic: Any effective way of sccisors?  (Read 5026 times)

Offline Soviet

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« on: December 01, 2001, 11:05:00 PM »
AH gunnery is a little dumbed down.  I'm finding it hard to sccissor people, they just fire their Hispano/.50 and get me all the time.  In Il-2 Sturmovik it is completly possible thanks to realistic gunnery but how do you pull it off in AH?

Offline Tac

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2001, 11:35:00 PM »
You're not sciscoring right or the other guy is much better than you are and can shoot you in the sciscors. AH gunnery is alright, its the damage model (all or nothing) that's a bit off imo.

Get lephturn or a trainer to show you the sciscors.

Offline aknimitz

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2001, 11:47:00 PM »
Heya Soviet,

Happy to help you with scissor anytime.  The mistake most pilots make in the scissor is reversing too quickly.  I like to make big turns, at least 60 degree, sometimes even 90.  Learning to use the throttle also can be a big help.  I like to chop throttle just as I am reversing, then getting back on the throttle as I change direction.

Hollar at me if you wanna go to the TA to work on it.

Nim

Offline Soviet

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2001, 12:58:00 AM »
ok nimitz, i'd be very appreciative if you can train me in sccissors, maybe some more evasives.  I'm available most of the weekend and on weekdays from 5PM-10PM.

Offline Kweassa

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2001, 06:14:00 AM »
Hey, I heard when you remarked about the gunnery and scissors today on channel 1, and I was about to ask you this question when it seemed like you logged off a little disappointed..

 "Do you look back when scissoring?"

 Hey, Sovi, dont get me wrong  :) I'm no way near a good pilot, but after I practiced a bit with the views and started to  continuosly look back and forth and back and forth while evasive scissors(sometimes, just looking back the whole maneuver), my evasives increased dramatically.

 No matter how you do the scissors, the enemy behind you always has small chances of putting through a snap shot, unless you keep looking behind and adjust the pitch of the plane as you do scissors. Look behind, scissor this way, if his nose seems to come in target pull or push a little stick in to not give him the shooting angle and etc..

 You're probably a better pilot than me, but I'm just suggesting if you don't look behind much while maneuvering, you should try  :)

 Cheers.

Offline Professor Fate

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2001, 06:46:00 AM »
It also depends what plane the guy behind is flying too.  I've stated before when I'm in a 109F all I have to pretty much do when a late model plane like the P-51 plane is sciscoring in front of me is to just chop the throttle and shoot everytime it passes in front of me.  I can hold a good straight course with little difficulty and without overtaking the other guy provided it's a late war type with more horsepower than he knows what to do with   :)

If you mix it up make sure you check out the plane markings so you what you're dealing with, it does help.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Professor Fate ]

Offline Wotan

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2001, 06:47:00 AM »
fer cannon plane the best way to "reverse" in the scissor imho is to roll under ur bottom wing.

that way when you reverse you will be below the nme's nose making a snapshot harder. This is disorienting but you need to watch the nme at all times. The idea ias to keep him out of plane and to cause an overshot that will enable you to get a snapshot.

I only scissor if I'm clearly at an e disadvantage but even if I see a guy try to scissor me I go vert the bounce the crap of him.

Larry is right you dont wanna make too tight a reverse and use your throttle to help with the overshoot. But dont get to slow. You want clean manuvers so that you dont lose control but the idea is to cause an overshoot not just dance around like 2 love sick snakes playing follow the leader   :).  

If your in a 190 and you dont get the overshoot or you miss your snap shot most likely you are sol. Once your e is gone you might as well auger.

You wanna get a shot on the 3rd or forth reverse. after that time to think up something new.... :)


With the arena as crowded as it is now its best to stick to a stategy that keeps you out of those situations. I know its not always possible but remember if your ever co-e with the nme around you in a 190 its time to leave. There are too many planes out there and no matter how good your SA is if you end up in a low scissor you bet that con on your 6 has a friend..... :)

or just die alot like the rest of us  :)

Offline Wotan

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2001, 06:51:00 AM »
btw I prefer a good barrel roll to a scissor same idea though overshoot snapshot  :)

but that all depends on you e state.

Offline Nifty

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2001, 10:29:00 AM »
You're going to be vulnerable in snapshots in the scissors as mentioned above.  You'll need to pitch up or down slightly to help spoil the snapshot.  also use your views and make the reverses to keep the bandit out of phase with your scissors as much as possible.  This will force him out in front quickly, or at least keep him at bay.  Also, look for moments when you can extend and separate (if the scissors gets into a stalemate, e.g.)
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Offline StSanta

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2001, 11:03:00 AM »
The key to scissors in AH vs hispano armed planes is to not just scissor in the horisontal, but to add vertical elements as well.

If you're scissoring using only the horisontal, he'll get a snapshot, and one or two pings from the Hispano can bring you down if you're just a tad bit unlucky.

Use the vertical - how much and uop or down depends on the position of his nose. Going below the nose of the enemy fighter is a good way to beat him.

Also, try hi speed scissors - surprisingly, I found that they worked when I tried it today  :). A poor D9 got wasted as a result  :D

Offline Ripsnort

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2001, 11:06:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
The key to scissors in AH vs hispano armed planes is to not just scissor in the horisontal, but to add vertical elements as well.

If you're scissoring using only the horisontal, he'll get a snapshot, and one or two pings from the Hispano can bring you down if you're just a tad bit unlucky.

Use the vertical - how much and uop or down depends on the position of his nose. Going below the nose of the enemy fighter is a good way to beat him.

Also, try hi speed scissors - surprisingly, I found that they worked when I tried it today   :). A poor D9 got wasted as a result   :D

Incidently, you can replace AH hispano with historically-accurate Hispano and scissors too  ;)

Offline Zippatuh

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
Another problem to keep in mind is the distance and energy state of the aircraft on your six.  If the scissors are started to soon you may only be providing a bigger target to hit.  Just about every time I go into them I’m clinching my teeth waiting for the right moment.  Too close and they get a nice stable target in front of them.  Too far and they have lots of time to set up for the snap shot.

It all depends on energy but I like to start em when the enemy is about D700 away.  And always start out with a little nose up or down action; never stay completely horizontal on the first and second pull.

Good luck.

Zippatuh

Offline humble

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
In addition to the previous posts...I think timing is a big key. Often I watch people start to madly scissor at 1.0 or so...way to far out IMO. A second common flaw is the failure to set the scissors up with another move or use it to soon in the end game.

If the con has to much E and/or is fighting primarily in the vertical then a scissor won't help much. Usually I'll use a rolling scissor vs any flat scissor whenever possible.

I'd suggest the following

1) start scissors at or near gun range...I usually start the process with a gentle rev at 1.2 (usually nose down or up)...followed with a low G rev at 800...if he's wiggling with me...I'll chop and scissor...if he's countered with a hi yoyo I'll avoid scissor long as I can. Goal is to start scissor just before he starts to fire...see if he goes for shot...scissors is a guns defense move only IMO. If you scissor more than twice you've done it wrong...unless your now in a scissors fight...in which case slowest plane will win (most of the time).

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Offline funkedup

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »
Scissors is a defensive move that is designed to generate angles for you and force an attacker into defensive flying.

Most guys I've seen try scissors (especially La-7 and 190 and 109) do it too rapidly.  They make small rapid scissors that don't generate any angles.  All they do is slow themselves down and make a hard target with maneuver warps.  It works for them sometimes but usually I just throttle back and wait for them to make a mistake.  Then I fill them full of lead.

With a real scissors you are trying to generate angles AND make the other guy overshoot.  And you have to look back at him to do it effectively.

Flat scissors is good if you don't have any altitude to work with and you have a plane with a great roll rate.  You start a break turn (pull to edge of blackout or stall, whichever comes first), then look back.  When you see the bandit start rolling to match your bank angle, reverse your turn.  Pull to the edge of blackout, wait for him to start rolling again, then reverse again.  Repeat until he flies in front of you or stops following your reversals.

Since your turns are banked almost 90 degrees, you can roll either way to reverse.  It takes about the same time to go from a 90 degree left bank to a 90 degree right bank whether you roll left or right.  If you mix it up occasionally it can confuse the bandit.  Use rudder to speed up your roll if your plane doesn't roll so well.  

If the bandit is flying faster or can't pull as many G he will eventually pass in front of you.  He might also collide with you, beware of this.

The rolling scissors is a better move if you have some altitude to work with and maybe your plane doesn't roll so great.  It is just a scissors where you are always pulling G, and you generally roll in one direction.  You break one way as in the flat scissors, but to make your reversal, you keep pulling and rolling in the direction of your break.  You roll and pull, varying your G a little to confuse him but not varying roll rate too much.  

You end up doing a big barrel roll - your path through the sky looks like a corkscrew.  If your opponent is going a lot faster or can't pull as much G he will make a corkscrew of larger diameter and cover more horizontal distance and end up in front of you.  Or if he is not faster but does not follow your maneuver and flies straight, you will cover less ground because you are flying a longer path, and he still ends up in front of you.  Then you can zap him.         :)

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Vector

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Any effective way of sccisors?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2001, 11:40:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa:
"Do you look back when scissoring?"

That is very good point. I'll always remember one case during brand W times. This spit was chasing my 109 and was near enough to start pinging me. I started to scissor and I though I made quite great ones! But <ping ping> all the time! Then I happened to watch back and I couldn't believe my eyes; I was making great scissors and this guy in his spit just flies straight behind me wings level! He must have been laughing his prettythang off and pinged me everytime I passed his nose with my rapid "great" scissors.
That is one reason to take some vertical elements to scissors.


 
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