Author Topic: CHANNEL FIGHT SETUP Late 1943 (well fudged a little) (Read 1695 times)

Karnak · « **Reply #30 on:** October 16, 2004, 06:06:45 PM »

If this were a 1943 setup I'd use this list:

Allied:
A-20G
B-26B
P-47D-11
P-51B
Lancaster Mk III
Mosquito Mk VI
Spitfire Mk IX

Axis
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Ju88A-4

That is a 1943 setup that is fudges a little.

The P-38L, P-47D-25, P-47D-40, Typhoon and Fw190D-9 have no more place in a 1943 setup than does the Me262, Tempest Mk V, Spitfire Mk XIV, Bf109G-10 or P-51D.

Squire · « **Reply #31 on:** October 16, 2004, 06:47:16 PM »

The Typhoon IB (late) which we have in AH2, was in service by the Summer of 1943. That doesnt mean it *has* to be in the setup...(no such thing), but it was in service. It was in service well before the P-51B or the Fw 190A-8 were.

As for the rest, yes, I wont argue with the dates set out for a late 1943 setup, that being said, its not my design.

Wotan · « **Reply #32 on:** October 16, 2004, 07:12:01 PM »

Are you sure Squire? There was a thread a while back that suggested the model and markings were for a '44 model. I know nothing about the typhoon and defer to Guppy.

If there was little performance differences or if in fact its the very model that saw service in '43 then great.

You might just call it a '44 ETO.

Squire · « **Reply #33 on:** October 16, 2004, 07:32:10 PM »

The markings are for a 44 model, yes.

Its not cut and dry, the Typhoon IB (late) came into service in early 43, later on it got the bubble canopy (@ early 43), bomb racks (@ summer 43), after that it got the rocket rails (@ October 43).

I have a photo of a Typhoon IB (late) with bubble canopy dated Sept 1943 flown by Wing Cdr Scott, OC Tangmere Wing.

There were 19 Squadrons of Typhoons with the RAF by April 1943, with the # continuing to grow with the RAF and RCAF. It was certainly one of the main combat types the allies deployed prior to D-Day.

Is it a 1943 a/c? absolutely. However, it had many mods done too it in its service life and it depends how picky one wants to get with what exact sub version and mod it had at what time. Thats nothing new for AH a/c though, just look at all the Spit IX threads.

Crumpp · « **Reply #34 on:** October 16, 2004, 07:44:22 PM »

Great Set Up Karnak.

One suggestion though is too get rid of the FW-190A8. It is a 1944 plane and has no business in a 1943 set up. The first production FW-190A8 jagd-einsatz's did not roll off the production line until March '44.

Good planeset, bro!

Crumpp

Oldman731 · « **Reply #35 on:** October 16, 2004, 11:57:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
If this were a 1943 setup I'd use this list:

The only problem with that list is the Spit 9. History teaches us that 95% of Allied flyers will fly the Spit 9 if it's enabled. That's fine, but the setup then might just as well be entitled "British Operations Over the Continent, 1943."

- oldman

Karnak · « **Reply #36 on:** October 17, 2004, 12:11:06 AM »

Squire,

I know the Tiffie was there and operational in 1943, but it's deck speed just makes it too potent. I guess a better way to do it would be to have the Tiffie, but perked at 20 or 30 points.

Crump,

I know that the Fw190A-8 is a 1944 fighter, but I put it in my list to sub for the Fw190A-6. There has to be an Axis counter to the P-51B, at least to some degree and the speed of the Fw190A-8 gives it a better chance than the other 1943 German fighters. The other option would be to leave out the Fw190A-8 and perk the P-51B.

Oldman731,

I'm not sure how true that is in AH2. Speed matters a lot more and effective long range gunnery is a thing of the past. You may be right though, in which case the Spit IX would need to be perked at 10 or 20 points to keep it rare.

The problem is, if the Typhoon is added as a perk, the Spit IX is perked and the P-51B is perked the Allies then only have the P-47D-11 and Mosquito Mk VI to use as fighters.

The only reason I am complaining about so many 1944 fighters in a ostensibly 1943 setup is that 1943 is my prefered year to see simulated in a WWII European theater sim.

Crumpp · « **Reply #37 on:** October 17, 2004, 12:30:03 AM »

Quote

I know that the Fw190A-8 is a 1944 fighter, but I put it in my list to sub for the Fw190A-6.

I understand and good sub.

Quote

P-47D-11 and Mosquito Mk VI to use as fighters.

The P47C and D were the most common fighters in the skies over Europe in 1943.

I don't understand all the Spit fear especially with the Spitfire Mk IX. It's the Spit Vc that is UFOish due to it's overextended time at boost.

I would put the Spit IX in unperked.

Crumpp

Guppy35 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 17, 2004, 12:58:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
I understand and good sub.

The P47C and D were the most common fighters in the skies over Europe in 1943.

I don't understand all the Spit fear especially with the Spitfire Mk IX. It's the Spit Vc that is UFOish due to it's overextended time at boost.

I would put the Spit IX in unperked.

Crumpp

There is something to what Crump is saying. I'm a Spit fanatic, but right now I'd take a Spit V over the IX anyday. It sure seems like we've got an LFVc which performs better then the FIX at the alts that the fights normally occur.

Typhoon IB went operational with 56 Squadron in May 1942. 56 had recieved it's first Tiffies in September 41.

I don't know exactly when they got the bubble canopy to replace the car door version. Photo evidence shows the car door version in official photos taken in the summer of 43.

Bottom line is the AH bird is the same beast only it has the bubble canopy. Still a Typhoon IB.

Dan/Slack

Guppy35 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 17, 2004, 12:59:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Oldman731
The only problem with that list is the Spit 9. History teaches us that 95% of Allied flyers will fly the Spit 9 if it's enabled. That's fine, but the setup then might just as well be entitled "British Operations Over the Continent, 1943."

- oldman

Umm...er.... yeah.. Give us Spit Vs instead

Dan/Slack

Squire · « **Reply #40 on:** October 17, 2004, 06:39:38 PM »

"It's the Spit Vc that is UFOish due to it's overextended time at boost."

The Spitfire V has 5 min of boost compared to 10 min for the 109F-4 or the 190A-4. The only thing UFO-ish is the continued "Roswell" logic we get from the Spit-bashers, who have a new conspiracy every week...

Crumpp · « **Reply #41 on:** October 17, 2004, 06:59:28 PM »

Quote

The Spitfire V has 5 min of boost compared to 10 min for the 109F-4 or the 190A-4.

Really? Did not know that. I thought we had the Merlin 45 (+16 boost) Spitfire Vc. Which according to the POH and this site:

Quote

The operational limitations of the Merlin 45 have been increased, the use of 3000 R.P.M. and +16 lb/sq.in. boost being now permitted for periods not exceeding 3 minutes during combat.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878.html

AFAIK the FW-190A5 benefits from the same engine modeling and operates a lot longer than it should do to the cooling model. It's rating is only 2 minutes at 1.42ata@2700U/min according to the Flugzeug-Handbuch.

In late 1943 / early 1944 it may have been upped to 1.58ata/1.65ata but as AH models the FW-190A5 we do not have that boost pressure.

Crumpp

Wotan · « **Reply #42 on:** October 17, 2004, 07:00:18 PM »

Squire is right both the F4 and G2 run at 1.42 and they weren't cleared for that until Nov '43 (source: butch). IIRC they were limited to 5 min at that time.

1.42 ata boost was initialy cleared but then derated and not cleared again until late '43.

You don't hear Spit 5 guys whining about the F-4, G-2 'UFOish due to it's over-extended time at boost'.

The the AH 2 Spit 5 runs at 16lbs and it was cleared for such in August '42. It only runs for 5 min.

The Spit 5 puts up a fun fight...

Squire · « **Reply #43 on:** October 17, 2004, 08:23:16 PM »

I have seen the 3 minute quote for the +16 lbs, which is more than likely what was "official" as the max allowable without risk of engine damage. I have also seen sources that give it 5 minutes.

Now...I will also point out that in Aces High the "computer game", ALL of the engines have a simple "wep" system of: max wep power-overheat-wait for cool off-max wep power system. Either 10 minutes or 5 minutes. In other words, your LW fighters MW50 *NEVER* runs out, ever thought of that?

ALL of them, German , Japanese, British, Russian, American: MW50, Water Injection whatever. So dont go on some "oh I looked and found out that the Spitfires engines doesnt work EXACTLY like in real life so its porked" nonsense. You want 100 percent accurate engine models, fine by me, bring it on.

Crumpp · « **Reply #44 on:** October 17, 2004, 09:58:19 PM »

Don't be defensive please. I pointed out the correct modeling hurts both sides. I did the math on the Spit Vc.

Quote

AFAIK the FW-190A5 benefits from the same engine modeling and operates a lot longer than it should do to the cooling model.

IMO, backed up by calcs, which you can search the BBS for because they have been done Ad nauseaum. The Spitfire Vc in AH zoom climbs to well.

It has a terrific sustained climb, turning circle and fantastic performance while on boost power. In short the Spit Vc was never an energy fighter. It simply does not have the mass to zoom like it does. It does have a great Thrust to Weight for a WWII fighter while boosted, however NONE of the WWII fighters could up end and fly straight up on thrust alone. A few planes could "hang on the prop" for a few seconds at best.

You can check out the minimum acrobatic speeds here:

The Spitfire Mk IX was in reality the better performer. In real life the Spit Vc could not sustain that fantastic performance for more than a few minutes. IN AH the Spit Vc is the better performer. If this is a sim, then that needs to be simulated.

Even if that means fixing the engine modeling so be it.

Crumpp