CHANNEL FIGHT SETUP Late 1943 (well fudged a little)

[Squire]

I get defensive when I see "cherry picking" of the data Crumpp to dump on one plane only.  Admit that all the engines have an arbritary wep modelling.

As for the Spitfire series, it was HTCs call to model the Merlin 61 Spitfire IX and not the Merlin 66 model, so if you compare a 1942 Spit Vc to a 1942 Spit F. IX, their low alt #s wont be as far off.

The 109F-4 is both *faster* and has a *better climb*, and yet you still persist in claiming the Spitfire V is over modelled. Give me a break.

No hard feelings Crumpp, its not personal, , but we strongly disagree Im afraid. When I see real data that shows a Spitfire V in AH2 being faster than a 109F-4 and outclimbing it, I will know there is a problem with its FM.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Alright, I know I have a long way to go before I'd consider myself "good" in a dogfight these days.  So when I was getting my butt kicked in a 109F by a Typhoon .......... in loops no less .......... I just chalked it up to my lack of skill and upped again.  After all, its been awhile since I got to fly a 109F and I did start at a disadvantage ( to JB11 for his skills btw ).  When he did the same thing to me in a P51B, I have some issues.  At 2.5k out he reversed on me and managed a double Immel.  Ok so I misjudged his E I thought, but I should be fast enough to stay with him.  At just under 200 mph I couldnt get my nose more than 1/4 of the way around following his top loop and I was stalled.  I didnt pull more than 3g's trying to follow him.  While I managed to stay pretty close to him in the loops that followed, I never managed better than nose to nose coming out and was always on the edge of stall, even though my speed coming out was consistently at 200.  I only had 2 minutes of WEP.  2 minutes???  In a 109???  75% fuel at takeoff (I dont know in AHII if fuel level affects how much WEP you get or not, or to what extent).  Now I know I'm not great, and for all I know he may be the greatest of the great.  But there's something wrong with that scenario.  Besides me lol.  Or is a P51B supposed to be able to stay with a 109F pulling loops?  Maybe I just need educated.

[Shane]

sounds like you might have the stall limiter enabled?

[StarOfAfrica2]

I didnt think of that, I'll have to recheck next time I log in.  I went back online and checked out a 109F in the training arena and I found my WEP problem.  Its not limited to this plane, and I dont know if its just me or if its a common thing.  My engine seems to "hiccup" for lack of a better word.  The manifold pressure guage drops and bounces back and it kills my WEP.  Its almost like I'm flying a Hurri or Spit with the carburetor cutting out only it doesnt happen at predictable times (like under a high G load or inverted, or under negative G's etc.).  I'd heard the engine cut-out thing before, but figured it was a lag issue or something similar.  I watched the guages react though, so its something in the game.  Is this supposed to be happening or is it a bug?  Or is it just me?  Of course, I also didnt seem to experience nearly the same problem with stalling in the training arena.  So maybe there was something else going on I did in the CT that affected my flying and I wasnt paying enough attention.  Ah well.

[Crumpp]

As for the Spitfire series, it was HTCs call to model the Merlin 61 Spitfire IX and not the Merlin 66 model, so if you compare a 1942 Spit Vc to a 1942 Spit F. IX, their low alt #s wont be as far off.

You're right, In fact according to the math the Spitfire Vc IS the better performer in many areas while using boost.  It is lighter and has a lot of power.

My beef is NOT with its turn, climb, or even it's dive performance.

My beef is the Spit Vc's zoom climb ability SEEMS to be too good.  It seems to be able to point it's nose straight up and take off like a missile.  

Zoom climb is a function of mass, thrust, and drag.  The Spitfire Vc does not have very much mass and is not as aerodynamic as you would think.

The Spitfire IX Merlin 61 has similar power, more mass, and similar drag.  It should out zoom the Spit Vc.

So it does not add up why our Spit Vc zooms so well.

Let me caveat this by saying:

This comes from fighting the Spit Vc AND a thread Spit pilots started who noticed the same thing.  So it is not just my own opinion based on a few seconds on the calculator.

I have not tested the zoom climb offline.  As you probably are well aware connection issues can vary plane performance.

I have to take off on business for a week or so.  You guys enjoy this CT setup.  I'll see you next week!

Crumpp

[Eagler]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Alright, I know I have a long way to go before I'd consider myself "good" in a dogfight these days.  So when I was getting my butt kicked in a 109F by a Typhoon .......... in loops no less .......... I just chalked it up to my lack of skill and upped again.  After all, its been awhile since I got to fly a 109F and I did start at a disadvantage ( to JB11 for his skills btw ).  When he did the same thing to me in a P51B, I have some issues.  At 2.5k out he reversed on me and managed a double Immel.  Ok so I misjudged his E I thought, but I should be fast enough to stay with him.  At just under 200 mph I couldnt get my nose more than 1/4 of the way around following his top loop and I was stalled.  I didnt pull more than 3g's trying to follow him.  While I managed to stay pretty close to him in the loops that followed, I never managed better than nose to nose coming out and was always on the edge of stall, even though my speed coming out was consistently at 200.  I only had 2 minutes of WEP.  2 minutes???  In a 109???  75% fuel at takeoff (I dont know in AHII if fuel level affects how much WEP you get or not, or to what extent).  Now I know I'm not great, and for all I know he may be the greatest of the great.  But there's something wrong with that scenario.  Besides me lol.  Or is a P51B supposed to be able to stay with a 109F pulling loops?  Maybe I just need educated.

go 50% and drop tank
the phoon is beating you with its greater E state - get him low and slow and you'll be able to out turn it
the 51b in the hands of good pilot will give 109f fits - thankfully that is not too many allied pilots

ah2 109's are not the ah1 109's - they flugged them up in the name of realism

[storch]

In the name of increased revenue

[VWE]

Funny, 109's had combat flaps but not our 109's... if you wanted realism not 1 pony driver with half a brain would attempt to turn fight a 109. It was common knowledge durring WWII that a 109 could out turn a pony but you'll have to go play Il2 if you want to experience that.

[Nashwan]

The operational limitations of the Merlin 45 have been increased, the use of 3000 R.P.M. and +16 lb/sq.in. boost being now permitted for periods not exceeding 3 minutes during combat.

The pilot's manual states 5 mins:


I susp[ect the manual's correct,as 5 mins seems to have been standard for all the wep times on Spits.

The Spitfire Mk IX was in reality the better performer. In real life the Spit Vc could not sustain that fantastic performance for more than a few minutes. IN AH the Spit Vc is the better performer. If this is a sim, then that needs to be simulated.

The problem is AH models the best Spit V, and the worst Spit IX.

The Spit V runs at 16 lbs, the Spit IX at 15 lbs.



As you can see, there's almost no difference in peak HP for the Merlin 61 at 15 lbs (AH Spit IX) and the Merlin 45 at 16 lbs (AH Spit V) (The most common Spit IX had the Merlin 66.)

So peak HP is almost the same, but the Spit V is 800 lbs or so lighter. Of course, at higher altitudes the Spit V has far less power than the Spit IX, but at lower altitudes it should outperform the version AH has.

[Crumpp]

So peak HP is almost the same, but the Spit V is 800 lbs or so lighter. Of course, at higher altitudes the Spit V has far less power than the Spit IX, but at lower altitudes it should outperform the version AH has.

Yes that is correct.  You can compare their performance here

SpitVc:

Climb

 http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878climb.gif

Speed

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/aa878speed.gif


Spit IX Merlic 61:

Speed

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/bf274speed.gif

Climb

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/bf274climb.gif

Crumpp