Author Topic: Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim  (Read 2056 times)

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« on: October 01, 2001, 07:20:00 AM »
Thanks for all the help with my previous question regarding vertical maneuvers.  

In that thread, as well as in others I have read, posters have discussed flying "straight up" (in, for example, a 109) using trim to maintain that profile.  I have two questions related to that concept.  

First, is combat trim insufficient to accomplish this?  It seems so to me, because when I try to fly straight up with combat trim, I'm all over the place.  If combat trim alone doesn't work, why use trim rather than the normal control inputs?  Finally, do you have any suggestions on transitioning from combat trim to manual trim once you go vertical?  I've had little success so far, and I suspect the answer is simply practice.  Oh, one more thing here: is it possible to map trim controls to analog axes rather than keypresses?  I've got an X36 and I'm using a downloaded profile that has the trim inputs maped to the two rotary axes on the throttle(one of the two axes is used twice, via the pinky shift key) but with the axes in "banded" rather than "analog" mode.  It seems that using the axes in analog mode would allow finer control.

Second, what is the best frame of reference to provide the feedback necessary to maintain a purely vertical profile?  The artificial horizon seems practically worthless, and I end up switching between looking out over my wings and back over my tail.  Doing so is fairly disorienting, and trying to adjust the trim while switching back and forth like that seems daunting, at best.  

I would greatly appreciate any advice or suggestions.  Thanks for reading.

Offline MANDOBLE

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2001, 07:36:00 AM »
AFAIK CT will help you to keep a desired angle without needing to touch your stick/rudders as speed increases/decreases. So far, CT will not do anything you cant do manually but can ease a bit your workload. So, if you dont know what to "move" to keep vertical, then yes, use CT. But remember to switch it off when near the top and manually trim maximum noseup to ease the reversal.

IMO, the best reference points to keep your plane vertical are the wingtips and the horizon. Just keep both wingtips at the same distance from the horizon line. If you get used to a particular aircraft, you'll be able to keep the vertical looking only at one wingtip.

About the X36 trim conf in the wheels, I preffer to configurate the trims in a HAT. With the banded conf, you need to reverse entirely the rotary control to trim in the opposite direction while with the HAT it is inmediate. And, AFAIK, it is not possible to have analog control of trims. They are simple key strokes, so, you'll trim your plane as fast/slow as your X36 is able to generate the trim characters.

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
Thanks, Mandoble.  That's very useful information.  I do have a question, however, regarding your suggestion to turn off CT and trim maximum nose-up at the top of the vertical maneuver.  I have been operating under the assumption that when I pull my (AH calibrated) joystick full back that I am getting the maximum elevator deflection that the plane can produce.  In other words, I thought that adjusting the trim defines control-neutral surface deflection but does not affect maximum deflection.  Is it actually the case (as your advice suggests)that pulling full back with maximum nose-up trim will generator more elevator deflection than pulling full back with a more neutral trim setting?  I guess I could figure this out for myself by looking over my wing while pulling full aileron deflection with neutral trim and then trying to increase the deflection using trim, but I would appreciate your thoughts nonetheless.

Thanks again!

Offline Kweassa

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2001, 07:58:00 AM »
Yes, as a matter of fact, adjusting the trims would give you more elevator authority in those situations. But the hammer head, or tail slide maneuvers, which trick the follower in to a vertical stall, is definately more of a empirical thing than something technical.

 Meaning: full eleavtor defelction does not necessarily mean your plane would be able to 'topple' over from tight situations. Pulling any sort of moves with high control surface authority is dangerous in a vertical stall move.

 It is more about timing, deciding at which point your plane will attempt to nose down. If it is too early, the move is neutralized, if too late, you might fall into the worst of stalls.

 I use a lot of those moves(actually, because its about the only ACM I know  :) ), and I don't think I ever met a situation where I had to use trims to do something.

Offline Kweassa

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2001, 08:03:00 AM »
Another tip, try more of throttle adjustment than tinkering with trims.

 At vertical stall situation, a plane has a natural tendency to tip over and nose down to its center of gravity. And, at the critical 'turning point', maximum throttle is a hinderance rather than help, especially with planes with heavy torque like 109G10. In my case, I note the speed, then look out the window.

 If I am at a speed near 50 mph, and I can feel my plane tip over slowly and 'nose down', I turn my throttle off, and gently use rudder and stick to maneuver. Surprisingly, minimum throttle will help the plane tip over faster, when maximum throttle might let you fall under a flat non-spinning flat stall.

Offline Apar1

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
I look at my wings and their attitude to the horizon as well to determine the planes attitude for vertical up. It also helps you to adjust for not going up vertical but slightly diagonal with the wingtip distance to the horizon as a reference (that is if you want to adjust for that).

I do the same thing as Kweassa where I throttle down (not completely) as soon as I determine to flip over. P.S. a pure Hammerhead is done by turning the plane in the yaw axis by applying rudder to turn and only use the other deflection surfaces to maintain the turn in one plain only.
For a "pure" Hammerhead in AH I found it usefull to start the vertical slightly diagonaly up (very close to vertical) with the angle in Yaw towards the eventual hammerhead turn. You can see this by looking at the distance between wingtips and horizon (one wingtip should be slightly lower). I found the Hammerhead to turn faster that way than from pure vertical.
Furthermore the question remains whether the Hammerhead is the fastest maneuver to flip over at the top (that is what you want in Rope&Dope maneuver). It depends very much one the planes ACM capability. I found a combination of all deflection surfaces at the flip over to give a faster turn than a pure hammerhead with the 109. (pure hammerhead is difficult and requires allot of training also)

I tried the Hammerhead with and without CT and also with CT in climb and shutting CT of at 100 mph. The last option works best for me and also is easiest to manage. You can engage CT again when picking up speed after turn, or manually trim in descent. Trimming in climb while trying to get your plane in ideal vertical flight path is difficult.

I flew and still fly the 109 allot and practise vertical maneuvers allot too. 109's are very good in this, but you need to take really good estimate on opponents E state compared to your E-state and also on E-retention during vertical of opponents plane compared to yours. I had some very painfull experiences with a wrong guess on the R&D maneuver where the opponent didn't stall out before me,    :rolleyes:

But if you use it allot, you'll get good successes in it too    :D

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Apar1 ]

Offline Lephturn

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
Combat Trim is only designed for a clean airframe within the flight envelope.  That is, when get going very fast or very slow, CT doesn't work very well anymore.  When you pop flaps, it will upset your trim condition and CT won't keep you in proper trim.

Use CT most of the time.  When you get below about 100 MPH (depending on the plane), start using manual trim to help you keep your nose up if needed.  If you extend any flaps, you may need more manual trim (normally nose up) to compensate.  Once you are back up to a normal flying speed with flaps retracted, use one of the auto-trim modes briefly to kick CT in again.  It works great.

Offline Blue Mako

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2001, 10:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa:
Yes, as a matter of fact, adjusting the trims would give you more elevator authority in those situations.

Sorry, this is wrong.  Trim removes control forces from the system, it does NOT affect the travel or authority of the controls.  The only time you can get any appreciable benefit from the trim is when the control forces become so high that AH models the controls as locked (ie. when you compress).  In the normal flight regime, trim will not give you any advantage in control deflection...

Offline Urchin

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2001, 01:04:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Mako:


Sorry, this is wrong.  Trim removes control forces from the system, it does NOT affect the travel or authority of the controls.  The only time you can get any appreciable benefit from the trim is when the control forces become so high that AH models the controls as locked (ie. when you compress).  In the normal flight regime, trim will not give you any advantage in control deflection...


Sorry, that is wrong.  If you are turning as hard as possible (i.e. the Joystick is at full deflection), you WILL get added response by using elevator trim to turn more tightly.  In Aces High, the trim is actually 'controlling' the flight surface, so if you want to say the trim provides 5% lift when you are fully trimmed, while the stick would naturally provide 100% lift, you will get 105% lift total if you use trim as well as using full deflection of the joystick.  As to whether or not this works when you are turning as tightly as possible but the joystick is NOT at full deflection, I don't know.  It would be interesting to find out if you could trim all the way back on the elevator and gain an additional X% lift in the turn that would stall you out if you attempted to use the joystick to get that X% more lift.

Offline Blue Mako

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2001, 01:40:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin:
Sorry, that is wrong.  If you are turning as hard as possible (i.e. the Joystick is at full deflection), you WILL get added response by using elevator trim to turn more tightly.  In Aces High, the trim is actually 'controlling' the flight surface, so if you want to say the trim provides 5% lift when you are fully trimmed, while the stick would naturally provide 100% lift, you will get 105% lift total if you use trim as well as using full deflection of the joystick.  As to whether or not this works when you are turning as tightly as possible but the joystick is NOT at full deflection, I don't know.  It would be interesting to find out if you could trim all the way back on the elevator and gain an additional X% lift in the turn that would stall you out if you attempted to use the joystick to get that X% more lift.

Uhhh, sorry Urchin but that's a big negative.  Spoke online to HiTech about this one night and he confirmed what I posted above.

If you trim a flight control surface (say elevator) fully down, you can still use the stick to move the control surface fully up.  The difference is that the control forces on the stick are much higher because you are working against the trim tab.  The control deflection is not changed by use of the trim and therefore the control authority is unchanged.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Blue Mako ]

Offline Naudet

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2001, 02:49:00 AM »
To keep the plane flying straight up, u also can use the auto-angle function. Than trim will automaticly hold ur plane in the vertikal. But before the flip over u got to deactivate it, or u must use to much control input and will stall.

I personally prefer CT with manual input, cause once u got the feeling, its better. U can than easier evade if the other guys starts shooting. And also the reaction on my inputs gimme a signal when to flip over.

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2001, 07:20:00 AM »
Thanks for all of the input!

Offline Bluedog

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2001, 08:16:00 AM »
About the referance thing....ie. 'how do I know when I'm going stright up?'
What i do is this....

Most of the time when I find myself going 'pure vertical', I have a con BEHIND me, as it is usually a lead-up to a Hammerhead style manouver, or Rope-a-Dope, if you prefer ,where the object is to use my 109s superior climb to stay out of guns range while I sucker my opponent into stalling out before me and becoming an easy target, or to force a vertical head on pass.
Given that scenario, it is reasonable to assume I will be using my '6 view'....ie, straight back. Now, assuming that each view covers approximately 90 degrees, if I were to line the top edge of my screen up with the horizon while lookin backwards, I would be climbing at 45 degrees....add an 'up view' to that, so  you are looking 'High 6', do the same thing, line up the top edge of your screen with the horizon, and you are climbing at 90 degrees to the horizon....or, striaght up.

Simpler than I made it sound  :).....look back and up, line up top edge of screen with horizon.... you are going straight up.

<S> Blue

Offline DanielMcIntyre

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
Pure Vertical:

I point my plane directly at the sun, however this only works at midday, other times I just run away or die.

Offline Blue Mako

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Vertical maneuvers follow-on question re: trim
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2001, 10:16:00 PM »
Okay, let's see if we can put the trim issue to rest.  Be warned, this is a long excerpt from the Aces High Help page...

This piece was written by Hitech to explain combat trim in Aces High.
The first thing to understand about trim is that there is no way possible to make it work like a real plane.  The joystick interaction with the controls is a completely different mechanical setup.

In a real plane you would be holding the stick back to maintain level flight.  You would then turn the trim knob to relieve any pressure on the stick, without the stick moving.  With a computer joystick, this simply isn't possible.  When you let go of the stick it will always go back to center.  Even force feedback sticks do not have the ability of adjusting stick spring center.

The second problem is stick feel.  When Pyro and I originally did some early models for CK we tried setting real settings for elevator deflection.  For example, the spit's stick setup is capable of generating about 38 degress AOA, and the plane stalls at around 17 degs AOA.  This would equate to pulling the stick less than halfway back and that would stall the plane.

Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view, that’s the way the plane was set up so it should be the same in the sim.  But if you step back and look at things another way, what did the plane feel like to fly and does it "FEEL" realistic when things change?  When flying a real aircraft I sense very little stick movement.  I perceive much more on how hard I'm pulling, how much I'm grunting, how much the stick is vibrating, than how much I’m moving the stick.

To accomplish some of this we use the stall horn, now the stall horn is NOT realistic by any means, but some method is needed to give you the same realistic feed back from the plane that you get in real life.  Therefore, you are forced to choose a method that works and gives the perception of reality.  We chose to setup controls that will let you stall with full stick deflection unless you are limited by control force.

Now comes the trim problem.  At slower speeds, where do you scale the stick movement from and how do you add in trim?

The method we have been using was to always give you x degrees of elevator travel than just add that degree to the current trim degree.  This leads to problems if you are slow with nose down trim, you could no longer pull the plane to the edge of stall.  This isn't how real planes fly in the slower flight envelope.  Very few planes could you not generate enough stick force to pull into stall at slower speeds.  This oversight is why people use trim in a slower turn fight and hence get an advantage by giving more up trim at slower speeds.

Under 1.04 we have change the control setup slightly.  We now scale the elevator/stick deflection to the same ending angle no matter where the trim tab is positioned.

There is another misconception that trimming your plane perfectly gives you a flight advantage.  Trimming your plane or just holding controls and pressing rudder to center the ball is exactly the same thing, and the plane will fly the same under both methods.


Now on to how the combat trim works.  The best way to describe how it works is to take your plane and trim it constantly in a dive from slow speed to high speed.  Now make a table of trim positions at all speeds.  All the combat trim system does is use this table to set the trims based on your speed.  Everything else still functions the same;  you pull back on the stick you still get adverse yaw, you turn you still will need to add in rudder.  You change throttle settings the plane still rolls due to torque.  Add flaps trim settings will be completely different and the system won't account for it.  Drop gear you will again be out of trim.  If you’re climbing or diving your plane is still out of trim.  In the end, all the combat trim system does is keep you in a trim envelope that you can override with normal controls.