Author Topic: The co E merge  (Read 7971 times)

Offline humble

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The co E merge
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2000, 11:08:00 PM »
Thanx for quick response...the ouch stuff was mostly tonque in cheek...but I'm always looking to learn/understand more about my addiction . One of the biggest challenges for me is translating 3rd party realworld expertise ( having none of my own ) to a flight sim setting. Only point i'll try and clarify further is 'mental vs physical'. I was referring to the mental (tactic's and planning) vs "flying" the plane on the edge (in sim of course), which to me is a learned motor skill. 90% of the folks I work with fly much better than they think they do. Most are tactically clueless in the beginning. They think they're being "outflown" when in reality they don't have a clear mental image of what they want to accomplish. Once they get that part figured out...then they are being outflown..but by a much narrower margin then they would have guessed initially.

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Offline Jekyll

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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2000, 01:05:00 AM »
 
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A 'barrel roll attack' has absolutely nothing to do with a merge...it is a BFM maneuver intended to solve an excessive aspect angle and is usually performed behind the bandit's wingline.

When is a merge, not a merge?    OK Andy, I'll bow to your superior experience on that one, but I regard a merge as any situation in which you are coming into contact with an opponent.  May not be the textbook definition but hey, it works for me  

That said, a BRA qualifies as a 'merge' in my book.  Then again, so too does a split S or vertical lead roll in some circumstances.  The purpose of the merge IMHO is to obtain a superior position in either energy or angle over the opponent, and a BRA will do that just fine for me  

 
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It's not the out of trim that produces the extra drag, it's the control surface deflection to begin with.

OK, and while control surface deflection is undoubtedly the major cause of drag in this situation, what I was trying to talk about was this:  You're in a turnfight, pulling on the pole to stay with your opponent.  You had previously been motoring along in autolevel at 300kts or so, and your horizontal stab is trimmed for 300kt level flight.  Therefore, since you are out of trim in your, say 160kt turn, will you not need MORE back stick to maintain that turn and speed, than if you were trimmed for 160 kts?  More back stick = more elevator deflection = more drag.  But the extra drag is caused by being out of trim initially, not just by the control surface deflection.

As an aside, anyone know whether AH followed the WB route and modelled stabliser trim rather than the use of trim tabs on control surfaces?  I'm assuming that it did.

Sorry about the confusion.


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[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 07-09-2000).]

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2000, 06:32:00 AM »
Just a note, Andy Bush.
In my description, plane (A) initiates an agressive separation from (B), plane (B) do not make a pure vertical climb, it makes a semi-loop, that implies even more separation from (A). In fact, when (B) ends the loop, (A) has gained more than enough separation, and YES, (A) forces (B) to make the LONG way.

And a final note, do not try it against a HogC, its guns will hit and kill you at d900 (absurd).

Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2000, 08:19:00 AM »
Jekyll

>>May not be the textbook definition but hey, it works for me<<

But that is exactly the point I'm trying to make! I'm not being critical of your flying skills...but I am saying that you need to observe standard terminology when talking BFM. Otherwise, when someone reads your words, they may get an incorrect perception of what you are describing.

A Barrel Roll Attack is a specific maneuver designed for a specific purpose. If you want to enter the merge doing a barrel roll, fine. But the barrel roll maneuver (as in an aerobatic sense) is not the textbook Barrel Roll Attack. (The use of upper and lower case is deliberate and significant.)

The point here is that the newbie will read the words of an experienced flyer and will accept it in its entirety. He then goes to his copy of Shaw and looks up the terms used. If Shaw's description is at odds with the post, then we have a confused newbie on our hands.

On the trim issue...I don't know whether AH models stabilizer trim vs trim tabs...but for our purposes, the question is irrelevant. When you are pulling on the pole at 160mph and want 'x' G, a certain amount of downforce is required of the stabilizer/elevator. Trim will not change that. Trim will only change the stick feel. Trim does not reduce drag...it reduces pilot work load.

Now the work load idea is significant to your point. Pilot work load can have an impact on BFM. The heavier the stick, the harder it becomes to hold the desired pitch attitude...the more the pilot has to think about stick pressure requirements, the less he can devote to other aspects of the engagement. The situation is analogous to a landing approach. One pilot configures and trims his a/c for a 'hands off' stick 'feel'. Another is content to leave the trim set for cruise conditions and chooses to hold the 'heavy' nose stick feel during his approach. Does the airplane know the difference? No. Trimming is great technique, but not a necessity.

Mandoble

I think we are talking about different things. My intent was to note that you two were flying in the same plane...you went up, he went up...in a different manner, for sure, but you both went up in the same plane of motion (ie, your lift vectors were in the same plane).

As such, the only factors that affected your separation were your extension speed, your extension flight path, and his G load in his Immelmann.

It's the old 'straight line is the shortest distance' thing...as long as you two are turning in the same plane, that is the 'straight line' minimum distance. Any turning on his part that is out of plane is by definition lag pursuit, and therefore a longer flight path.

Consequently, for a given G load, B will achieve the minimum separation by turning in plane with A as was originally described. Any attempt to turn in a plane other than the one defined by A will produce additional lateral and vertical separation.

In any case, all of this nit-picking is of little importance in the grand scheme of things. We do this to have fun. If we want to encourage others to do the same, all I suggest is that we not confuse them in the process.

Andy    

 

Offline Duckwing6

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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2000, 02:45:00 PM »
Whoooaaa .. this thread is getting a BIT of topic .. i didn't really ask for a discussion about therminology .. but rather for a way to beat peoples going High with low G force after the merge

Oh and Andy you can do a 1.5g Immelman (low G that is according to MY experience with aerobatics) with the F4U easy in AH with an entry speed of around 300 to 350 mph..
most people will pull harder tho 3g and more.

BUT folks all of this is great stuff keep it coming  

Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2000, 07:55:00 PM »
DW

Regards your 1.5 g Immelmann...I find that a bit on the optimistic side of things.

I have tried the F4U in AH at 300-400mph and 1.5 G. It is possible to get over the top...in a manner of speaking...but I wouldn't call it pretty...and it requires a serious crosscheck of the G meter since there is no tactile feel for this type of maneuver.

One and a half gs is practically nothing...the pilot is only using 1/2 G to rotate the nose...to be able to do a vertical maneuver at that g load will require close to a 1:1 thrust capability. Not many WW2 a/c had that kind of performance.

Your desire to describe a zooming climb where you trade airspeed for altitude is just fine...but be careful when you start describing specific flight parameters. When you do that you should be ready to back it up with specifics...type of a/c, fuel load, etc. Otherwise some newbie is going to try it and end up wondering why he is emulating a falling leaf.

Andy

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2000, 09:39:00 PM »
WOW, this thread sure has grown. Andy, sure is glad to have a real fighter pilot in here! You USAF? Navy? MArine?

Ok, this is what I think. Even in Low wing loaded AC, I believe that in AH it is always better to go for and E advantage rather than an angles advantage after a merge, this is just for 1 on 1 really, as a multi con enviroment changes the way you should fly constantly.  Personally a 30 degree zoom after the merge, in plane manuever is a bread and butter move for me. It works well. I will go into the climb immediately at merge and keep 30 degree aspect till my IAS drops to 200 MPH or so. I then will gradually pull up on the stick ( if in a P-51, or P38 give it a notch of flaps when your aspect is true vertical nose up). Up and over I go and I am now reversed. Mostly I will find my opponent at this point closing on me but slow, I am slow too however but will have a significant altitude advantage. Depending on AC, an AC with a good climb rate I will continue to climb  and go into a luiftberry circle  and wait till hes too slow and he must break off to gain E. Now a good pilot that saw this coming has done 1 of 2 things, 1) he extended and got his speed up to a point where his AC manuevers well, this will put his me nose to tail with him and into a chase which i will eventually win because of my alt advantage. 2)he saw my initial zoom and matched it conserving his energy, now we will merge again under the same conditions as the intial merge. We both did the long zoom and now we are probably seperated out of icon range or at least enuff that when we merge again we will both be at a high E state. Guys, I dont believe that a good turner will win the fight over a good E fighter. Now this works in our ladder duels, what about dissimilar AC? You have to know the strengths of all the AC in the  AH plane set.  This tactic still works well too, especially if you are in a good zoomer/climber. It can be effective in low wing loaded AC like a spit or zero, depending on your adversaries manuver after merge.

You must be able to watch your adversary all the time, judging his E state coimes with practice,  lots of it. AH has a great view system, to utilize it you should practice activating them till you do it intinctively. I have a CH setup, throttle, pedals, and Stick. Total of 7 hats which I have alot of views mapped to. I keep the most used views mapped to my throttle, I dont won't to interfere with my manuevering in the heat of battle. If you have the same equipment as I, I would be glad to email the template to anyone who asks.

If any more questions i'll be glad to share my meager thoughts about them. There are others in this game that are much better than me and hopefully they will step in and give us their view
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Offline Rocket

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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2000, 09:51:00 PM »
Ok can someone clarify for me just for a moment?
Angles are Angles and that is the end game of any attack. If you don't gain angles then you lose plain and simple.  
The idea of using Energy is to wear your opponant into a lesser Energy state so that you can gain angles for a firing solution.
The other idea is to use superior turning capibilities to gain pure angles to finish the game with a shooting solution.

Am I way off base here with this?
We have turn fighting, the angles game using a better turning radii to win the fight.
or
We have Energy fighting, the angles game using superior energy to wear the opponant down and win.

So the way I think, which is usually WAY off base,
 
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I believe that in AH it is always better to go for and E advantage rather than an angles advantage after a merge

is that the only thing we are trying to do in combat is gain angles either by turning or using Energy very wisely?

Am I just really confused or am I gaining ground?

<This is why I am better to stick to basic flight manuevers>  

S!
Rocket



Offline Duckwing6

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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2000, 03:10:00 AM »
Andy:

Well i backed it up and you confirmed it even .. sure it's not pretty , sure a judge at an aerobatics contest won't give me 0 failure for it .. BUT the point is i got the nose around with the maximum altitude gain..

I use first flap setting in the F4U as soon as i'm past the vertical.. and i will be way below Stall speed and unloaded to 0 G when coming inverted.. and yes you need to constantly recheck G meter during the pull up this requires a lot of work with the views. And you are right i rotate up till about 30° Pitch up with 2 - 2.5 G then on with 1.5G

You have yet to describe what YOUR suggestion for a Merge with similar A/C in a Co E situation (same alt, same speed) is.

Would you lead turn, will you extend your pull up, will you flat turn for angles ?

DW6

Offline Jekyll

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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2000, 03:47:00 AM »
Rocket:  re the energy fight-v-angle fight.  Its always helped me to think of it this way.  All fighting involves a tradeoff between energy state and nose position.  You want to change nose position in a hurry?  Well that's going to involve an expenditure of energy to achieve it.  Conversely, if you fly the energy fight, you'll often be gaining energy at the expense of nose position (angles) on the bandit.  The energy fighter seeks to build that energy advantage in such a way that, when the time is right, he can cash in all that energy for a massive improvement in nose position and gain the kill.

OK, on to Andy's comments.

 
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If you want to enter the merge doing a barrel roll, fine. But the barrel roll maneuver (as in an aerobatic sense) is not the textbook Barrel Roll Attack. (The use of upper and lower case is deliberate and significant.)

Whoa!  Hold on there Andy.  I never said anything, ANYTHING, about doing a barrel roll to merge.  I was talking about the specific Barrel Roll Attack maneuver.  Perhaps I forgot to capitalise it when explaining it earlier    That’s why I asked “When is a merge, not a merge?”.  I’ve never seen anything in Shaw which provides a definition of the merge, so here’s my dweebish attempt  

“A merge occurs when two (or more) combatant aircraft enter an area of space in which at least one aircraft has a reasonable opportunity of shooting the other”.  

A HO situation therefore would not constitute a merge until firing parameters are met: if two aircraft approach headon, but are separated by a 5000 feet altitude difference, there would be no merge until either the low fighter climbed or the high fighter dove down.

 
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Trimming is great technique, but not a necessity.

Sorry, but I disagree with this statement 1000%.  OK, lets take two identical aircraft in a turnfight at say, 160 mph.

Aircraft A is trimmed for 160 mph.  Aircraft B has just dived in from a high speed cruise and is trimmed for 300 mph.  I will assume that AH follows the same model as WB and achieves trim by use of stabiliser changes, but even if it doesn’t, the following still applies IMHO.

Now on aircraft B, part of the aircraft (the horizontal stabiliser or trim tab) is exerting a lifting force on the tail section, while the pilot is using elevator to generate the downforce required to turn circles with his opponent.  Will not the pilot of aircraft B have to pull MORE up elevator than the pilot of aircraft A in order to turn the same turn radius?  And if the pilot of aircraft B does have to pull more on the pole, will that not therefore generate more drag?

 
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If you fly around with your rudder trimmed out of alignment, it will tend to produce unnecessary drag.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, however your above comment confused me a little when you followed up with ...

 
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Trim will only change the stick feel. Trim does not reduce drag...it reduces pilot work load.

Sorry, you lost me there.  So are you saying that being out of trim will, or will not, induce extra drag?

I’ve never flown a RL Spitfire, Mustang or Fw190.  I wish I had    But I can tell you that at least as simulated by Warbirds and Aces High, being out of trim DOES have a dramatic effect on a pilot’s ability to ride the edge of the stall, and get as much out of his aircraft as is possible.

Try this as a test:  go offline in a Spit 9.  Set your trim to 160 mph autoclimb then enter a level constant speed turn at 160mph.  Time your turn for 360 degrees.  Now take that same Spitfire and trim it for 300 mph.  Try to enter a 360 degree turn at 160 mph and do one of the following:

1.   Try to hold the constant-speed turn at 160mph and time the turn.  (You’ll find your turn rate has suffered)
2.   Try to turn the 360 in exactly the same amount of time it took to do the initial 360 when trimmed for 160 mph (you'll find you cannot maintain 160mph all the way around).

Now, this may not be the case in real life, but then again, our new guys are not getting shot at in real life    But this is certainly true for our sim, and that’s why I still maintain that proper trimming of the aircraft is mandatory if you are considering a ‘riding the edge of the stall’-type fight.

I would imagine that in a modern jet fighter, trim drag would probably be almost irrelevant.  A 10mph disparity between a Mig-29 and an FA-18 probably means nothing at all.  But in a piston-engined WW2 fighter as simulated in AH, improper trimming can easily cost you as much as 10mph in a turnfight.  And in a WW2 fighter, 10 mph is an enormous difference between aircraft.

Aircraft A maintains 160mph in a constant 800’ radius turn.  Aircraft B, being out of trim, can only hold a constant 150mph around that same 800’ radius turn.  Aircraft A will complete one 360 in about 21 seconds, compared to 22.8 seconds for aircraft B.  Aircraft B is slower, so it cannot easily disengage, and aircraft A has a turn rate advantage, so it will eventually reach a firing position on Aircraft B’s tail.

The pilot of aircraft B checks his chute straps are tight, and awaits the inevitable  

Oh, one other thing.  New guys might not necessarily have items like rudder pedals or twisty sticks for rudder control.  In fact, they probably won’t.  For new guys therefore, being in trim is even more important than for those of us who’ve got a full hotas setup, and can therefore easily step on the ball to keep the pointy end going in the right direction  

Regards.. Jekyll


Offline Fariz

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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2000, 06:37:00 AM »
Film you fight when you use scissors (go to TA if you want it fast and many time) and analize it. Film recorder is the best way to improve your technic in almost anything, it helps to see your mistakes.

I hate scissors myself, if I scissor it mean that I am in a real bad situation. I do everything to avoid it.

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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2000, 08:02:00 AM »
I'll strike while the iron is hot:

What is "in-plane" vs "out-of-plane" manuvers?

I never understood that. Thanks... great thread.

 

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Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2000, 09:11:00 AM »
Gunthr

Here is diagram that shows an out of plane situation.

Imagine the plane of turn as a flat sheet of glass. As an aircraft turns, its velocity vector (picture it as pointing out the nose) and its lift vector (picture it as pointing out of the top of the canopy) will move along that sheet.

Anytime two aircraft are maneuvering together and their planes are not the same, then they are 'out of plane' with each other.

Out of plane maneuvering is the bread and butter of BFM, primarily for the purpose of using radial G to improve relative turn performance (increased turn rate, decreased turn radius).

For more basic info on this, please see my series, 'Its All A Matter Of Perspective' in the Air Combat Corner at www.simhq.com.

 

Andy

Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2000, 10:35:00 AM »
Jekyll

For starters, I'm not in this thread to argue with you or demean your ideas.

I comment when I think it will improve the passing of knowledge...or to clarify a specific point.

Here's the deal on trim. It's a secondary flight control device meant to reduce stick and rudder loads (and therefore pilot work load).

The rudder is 'trimmed' to a specific setting to offset the rudder as a counter, usually, to the yaw produced by engine torque. If rudder trim was not used, then the pilot would have to physically push the rudder pedal in to get the desired offset.

The ailerons are trimmed to hold a desired bank angle, usually wings level.

And the elevator is trimmed to hold a specific pitch attitude...this may be level flight/one G or it may be a specific G load resulting in a turn (for example, the aircraft elevator would be trimmed for 2 Gs to hold a 60 degree bank level turn.

The horizontal stabilizer/elevator is a 'mini-wing' that produces lift depending on its airspeed and angle of attack. Generally speaking, for a given deflection, the lift produced increases with speed. Therefore, 2 Gs at 150mph requires more deflection than does 2 Gs at 300mph.

There are several ways to trim the 'elevator'. Some aircraft (the F4U, for example) have trim 'tabs' on the trailing edge of the elevator. The pilot moves these tabs when trimming (see diagram). The trim tabs move opposite the movement of the elevator.

Other trim arrangements have the entire horizontal stabilizer moving when the pilot trims (this is the case with most modern fighters...see diagram). The result is the same...a downforce that assists the pilot in maintaining a pitch attitude.

Other trim systems use an adjustable horizontal stabilizer. When the pilot trims, he moves a jack screw that moves the leading edge of the horiz. stab. up or down. This produces a small lifting force that again reduces the amount of elevator movement needed to hold a desired pitch attitude.

OK...so much for a/c design. The aerodynamic consequences of trim design are way beyond this discussion. What newbies need to know is that trim reduces stick forces and therefore pilot work load. End of story. I've instructed in everything from USAF T-37s to F-4s, F-104s and A-10s to Boeing 727 and DC-9s...and at no time has airspeed or energy been mentioned as a consequence of trimming.

If in fact the AH flight model is programmed such that an out of trim situation as you mention produces a 1.8 dps difference in turn rate, so be it. In the grand scheme of BFM, this is relatively insignificant. Anyone that would stay in a turn and let someone else out turn him at that rate is a dolt.

 

As for the question on my military background, see my bio in the staff section at www.simhq.com.

Andy

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2000, 04:28:00 PM »
thanx for the link Andy, will always look forward to your opinion when you give it.

You fly the F-4G? in the pic it looked like one. When I first joined my first assignment was with the 31st TFW at Homestead and they were near the tail end of the transition to the F-16.
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