Tips on turning the new p38l

[eye]

Hi guys i need help on turning a 38 . Flaps at what speed,best corner speed etc. It seems to be tougher to turn than i would imagine it should be especialy under 150 mph. Any help would be greatly apreciated. Any tips in general on the 38 would be nice. This is my new ride its a true ubber plane.

[Sharky]

Eye,

If your turning the P-38 at less than 150 ias your setting yourself up to get dead.  The P-38 is a lot like the Mustang in that it turns well at speed.  The wing loading on the P-38 prevents it from being a good low speed turner.

The flaps on the P-38 and Mustang are good for that little extra turn rate at speed but if you get it slow it's gonna snaproll on you.

I concider 200ias as the slowest I want to get the P-38, any slower it's time to extend and get some speed.  The P-38s biggest strength is in it's vertical ability.  With it's counter rotating props and large rudders in the engines prop wash the P-38 is very stable at low speeds in the vertical.

The bottom line is that the P-38 is not a good low speed flat turner, and using it that way is not takes advantage of it's strengths.  Look me up in the TA and we can do some P-38 work.

Sharky

[daddog]

Sharky IMHO the 38 can turn well at low speeds. Full flaps between 150 and 200 she does real well. I have turned inside Spits at this speed. With the counter spin on the props she is very stable at those speeds be it vertical or not.

Citabria is one of the best drivers in the 38 I know... Cit you here?  


------------------------
daddog C.O.
332nd Flying Mongrels
 
Where men become friends and friends become brothers.

[mx22]

 

Originally posted by daddog:
... I have turned inside Spits at this speed...

daddog,

I doubt that sustained turn in P-38 is better then that of Spitfire at speeds of around 200. At high speeds of around 450 and higher P-38 should be able to turn inside of Spitfire, as Spitfire becomes less and less contrallable as speed goes up (at around 500 Spitfire barely responds to even full joystick deflection and is a problem to fly straight, not even talking about turning).
There is a whole bunch of exceptions here of course, such as you being slower then Spitfire, or turning inside of Spitfire with an out of plane manuever. But again I highly doubt that given same relatively small speeds (anywhere up to 300) and you being dead on Spitfire's 6, you can follow him in a flat tight turn.

mx22

[humble]

I think that the 38 is a "tweener", it's inherent stability allows an average stick to pull awful close to the edge in a horizontal mode. The spit requires a finer touch. I've been getting "lessons" from Jase off and on in the TA. Originally these were quick and brutal 1 or 2 move and...SLAP. Recently as I've absorbed more, we've progressed to some true end games. I was amazed how fine his touch is...3 or 4 times in a row he finally flipped me out on the deck. Comparing the two, a very good 38 driver can out turn a slightly below average spit driver.

Sharky's advice with regard to the 38 is right on. The planes strengths lie in the vertical. Utilizing any other approach would be a tactical mistake.

I of course will bow to Citibria's views when he happens to catch this thread.

[mx22]

Just found about Jekyll's perfomance pages. It shows Spit9 roll rate being superior to P38s at all speeds below 300 (even at 300 they are almost identical, but after that, as I previously mentioned, Spitfire becomes pretty much a brick).
Also to note, that give identical speeds, P38 can't outclimb Spit9 either. But zoom climb is slightly better in P-38 (I think zoom climb plays more role in MA, then straight climb).
At speeds upto 200, P-38 can get 2 "clicks" (forgot the right word) of flaps down, while Spitfire can only one.
Unfortunatly pages don't list sustained turn rates for plane. But since Spitfire at around 200mph rolls better then P-38, and if we assume that their sustained turn rates are equal (which are not, and I'm sure Spitfire has an edge there), I don't see how P-38 can turn inside of Spitfire in a flat turn.

P.S. here is the link  http://www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 04-24-2000).]

[Sharky]

Daddog,

How come I never run into you in the arena while flat turning your P-38 at 150ias when I'm in my Mustang  

You can turn the P-38 at slow speed but I don't recommend it.  If you don't kill that Spit in the first 90 degrees of that turn he's gonna kill you, or he's just a weak pilot.

Eye the P-38 is not an angles fighter.  Don't get suckered into thinking it is.  The strength of the P-38 is it's high speed performance and it's short term vertical performance (don't get into a spiral climb fight with a 109)

Citabria is an outstanding Lightning pilot but I'm sure he would agree that unless it is absolutly necessary dont get the P-38 low and slow.

Sharky

[Extreme]

Eye,

although I'm not flying online at the moment, I've been flying the 38 in h2h and turning circles around niks and spits.

I find the 38 a decent ride since the updates.  What I have setup is eng 1 and 2 mapped to buttons on my joystick and use throttle to help bring her nose around at the top of my wingovers or hammerheads. I also use 1-2 notches of flaps only for turning at speeds between 150-200 ias.  

With regards to horizontal sustained turns, I'd prefer not to do them, but if I had to, I'd prolly use 1 notch of flaps.  What you prolly rather do is a series of mini-hi yoyos (kinda like a pendulum), using the vert to tighten your turning circle...btw turn to the right in these slow fights.

Oh, if you want to live for more than one kill then Sharky is right  ..

Ex.

[Citabria]

when I'm flying with my brain on I'm not doing flat turns. the sky isn't flat.

I don't know how to classify the p-38 but it is not and will never be a true turn fighter, it's not a 6000 lb spitfire. I can't do insane maneuvers with the ease i can in a spitfire like flying inverted through multiple hangars in formation etc.(yes I have film of this if you want it       )

the p38 weighs 12000 lbs empty and 20,000 lbs loaded. with full fuel it turns like a 190 even with flaps and rolls like crap. if I remember correctly the aux tanks are in the aft part of the inner wing while the mains in front of inner wing so its good to have no fuel in aux tanks when forced into a classic dogfight battle. but that goes without saying...
Fuel is good for going where you want and bad when you get there in any plane.
The p-38 especially since it holds so much fuel.

it only has 1 or 2 good turns even with flaps which give you the snapshot for the kill before they work around on you. So basically don't miss your shot or you die.    

getting close to the ground is also dangerous for the P-38 with its inherent gravitational enhancement. if your not careful you will sink into the rolling terrain.

I find the p-38 to be much better at altitudes of 20k where it can fight with more power against n1k2's and La5's.

so I guess McGuire's rules for the P-38 ring true in AH as well:

Never attempt combat at low altitude.
Never let your airspeed fall below 300 miles per hour.
Never keep your wing tanks on in a fight.
fly with brain on      


however when flying with brain off 1 or 2 notches of flaps for turns less than 250 mph and all flaps you need for squeeking over the top.

make sure flaps up any time you not turning.


well good luck.
I'm in the Training Arena a lot furballing at the free for all field if you need a big fat P-38 to shoot at      

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 04-25-2000).]

[mx22]

Extreme,

I really like to see you turning inside of Spitfire. If you've got any films, please share
One more thing that I thought of yesterday at home is stall speeds. Spitfire stalls at around 120. That's an estimate since I forgot to do any tests, but even at this low speed I can perfom some basic relaxed manuevers. I don't belive that P-38 can fly at such a speed, so if you start hard turning with Spitfire at around 150mph, you should stall in just couple of seconds as plane would bleed all of it's speed.
To conclude it all, I want to rephrase Citabria's words a bit. If you turn fight with Spitfire in P-38, you just asking to be killed.

mx22

[Citabria]

 AH spits stall at  less than 80mph

 AH p38 stall 100mph+ clean

same as real life counterparts


yes the p38 can turn inside a spit if the spitfire isnt turning. its purely circumstantial.

[mx22]

I'm not saying that P-38 can't turn inside of Spitfire. I mentioned in my previous posts that using out of plane manuevers, while Spitfire is in a flat run, P-38 can't get inside and have a snapshot opportunity. What I think was said, that P-38 can acctually turn flat inside of Spitfire and I simply disagreed with that statement.

Thanks for the corrected stall speeds though...

mx22

[daddog]

I have learned a lot from these posts.   Thanks guys!

Well I did some tests of my own last night with a squadie "gospel". What I found out was that the P-38 does not turn as well as I thought (I might have had more e than I thought when I was out turning so others), but she does turn better than some of you think.

Gospel and I started with the Spit 9. Both with 50% fuel.

1st Trial - P-38 zero flaps Spit 9 zero flaps. Spit 9 won hands down.
2nd Trial - P-38 1/2 flaps  Spit 9 zero flaps. Spit 9 won (some stall horn).
3rd Trial - P-38 full flaps Spit 9 zero flaps. P-38 won (was close).

In the 3rd trial it was about even for the first couple of 360's. Then I turned on my WEP and after 2 more 360's I came around on him.

In the Spit V gospel had me easy. No way can the P-38 turn with the Spit V, but from what I have experienced she can out turn the Spit 9 with Full flaps.

Granted turning on the deck at 130 mph is not going to get you home often, but my point (in this sim) the P-38 turns better than some of you might think.  

------------------------
daddog C.O.
332nd Flying Mongrels
 
Where men become friends and friends become brothers.

[Citabria]

daddog was it a right turn battle?

[gospel]

No, it was a left turn battle.  I did not use flaps in the spit because I did not think they were used in real life to turn in a Spit.

Good point tho, would be better to turn left in defensive turn fight in p38.

While the 38 did turn inside the spit, it was only at low speeds with full flaps.  With a good spit pilot (I am not a good spit pilot   ) the 38 could be out turned and killed before the fight got that slow.  

I will have to try using the engines to help turn the 38 in the vertical.  That sounds like a good trick.  In brand W I used to be able to get some kills by taking a con straight up till they stall, then hammerhead back down on them. This manuver gets me killed more often that the con in aces high   .


gospel
332nd flying mongrels