La-7.....frusteration.....rising.....

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by Zanth
While we are going wildly off topic - The truly uber killer in AH remains the the Panzer with machine gun with the exposed gunner you can't kill.

The La-7 has 43 kills and has been killed 87 times against the Panzer IV H.

The Ki-84-Ia has 59 kills and has been killed 86 times against the Panzer IV H.

By your way of reasoning the most uber killer in AHII must be:

The Stuka !!!

Ju 87D-3 has 33 Kills of Panzer IV H; Panzer IV H has 15 Kills of Ju 87D-3

[humble]

But then Shaw is considering massive e states (jet fighters) and some of his snap shot examples can more easily be converted into lag/lead turns in AH if the snap shot is refused. (depends upon the nose down/up status)

Hence where Shaw would often suggest we offer the snap shot to gain angle, in AH our opponent may not take it any way as his prefered option would be to scrub e and adopt a lead/lag turn to gain his own angles adavantage.

There are little or no "stall" fighting tactics in Shaw. AH "stall" fighting is one IMO where both opponents incurr massive e loss to gain angle and force the combat down to very low mutual e state. The combatant who rides the edge better gets a sustained guns position as his opponent finally wallows.



I couldnt disagree more with this statement, it shows a lack of understanding regarding the subject matter....


to put it perspective (from my "limited" understanding)...

Shaws book discusses both theory and the application of theory.
Often the theory and its application are confused...to simply rely on catch phrases "speed is life" will only get you killed. Often speed kills...the application of energy or potential energy appropriately decides air combat encounters...all pure speed does is let you run away.

There is no such thing as "stall" fighting...I dont believe you will ever find the phrase used to describe a fighting doctrine anywhere in any book. Basic air combat "schools of fighting" can be broken down into three types...Angles fighting/energy fighting/Boom & Zoom. Historically most real life fighting was "boom & zoom"...90% of the victims never even saw there opponent and one of the great variables was eyesight. Most "dogfights" involved some variation of E fighting and very little angles fighting was done.

Strictly from an understanding of ACM the average "noob" here is light years ahead of his real life WW2 counterpart. Many of the real "aces" here  have 5000+ actual combat hours.

What we have here is actually a much higher standard since in WW2 90% of the kills are the equivelent of an "AFK" boom & zoom here. Accordingly you need to apply the theory not just recite it. If you are in a spit V and bouncing a low hog...he's the angles fighter and your the E fighter. Since neither plane is a "double positive" the hog driver will attempt to use angles tactics to equalize E state while the spitty has to successfully prosocute an attack before E states equalize and he loses control of the fight.

Now if the Hog bounces the spit V he can utilize E fighting or B&Z style attacks (or run away if its Levi) while the spitty will use angles & e tactics to create enough convergence of E state to enable a shot window.

Everything you ever need to win any fight under any circumstances is right there in Shaw...unless of course the other guy read the book to:)

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by humble
The lala is simply an other piece of iron, the man in the machine makes the machine go...simple as that:D

like i said... the lala loonies are evil.. i imagine them all as teletubbies with forks and red panties

[AKFokerFoder+]

I also "saddle up" on the tracking shot but its not the best way to play the game, IMO.

I make lots of tracking shots, but I almost never saddle up on a bogey.  Saddling up is the best way I know of to bleed off your energy and get blown away.  This is not what that chart from Shaws book is intimating.

I like to make tracking shots (indeed all my shots) with at least 100mph of speed faster than the bogey.  Last night a spit was stall fighting a couple of my countrymen.  He reached the top of his arc, and I took his wing off as I zoomed by him at over 300 mph.  He probably still wonders where I came from

As for stall fighting, why would I ever want to get co-E with a bogey?  It certainly may happen (co-E), and I may find myself going guns defensive, but believe me that is a situation I rarely find myself in.  There is a thing called Situational Awareness; it’s primary purpose is to keep you from getting into trouble in the first place, not getting you out of trouble per se.  

Kinda reminds me of Dicta FokerFoder #6;

“The best way to shake a bogey off your six, is not to let him get there to start with”.

The only stall fight I would ever initiate is a “Rope a Dope” (surprising how many still take the bate on that old trick)  

You may think I am talking smack, and so be it.  Check my stats if you are bored, and I do expect them to get better with the improvements to the 190 FM this patch.  And if you think it is easy to fly in the MA with a 190A8, try it out.  She’s sortta like a girl friend with cross-eyes, you learn to ignore her faults if she can give you a good back rub…

[4510]

Ak,

  The style that you ascribe to emphasizes a certain set of skills.  Makes you neither better nor worse  a pilot than someone with a different style.

  If you fly in what we might call a realistic manner, using SA, and the dicta you quote you will have success that can defined by using a certain frame of reference.

  However, the knife fighters that hook up with their opponent and duel to the death have their own set of skills.  In a purely mano-o-mano context, the better knife fighters will always be considered better pilots.  While the more realistic SA flyers will not.

I mean, in any type of dueling ladder you can't fly the SA style and if unsuccessful withdraw and wait for another opportunity.  You have to latch on to your opponent and knock him down.  

FWIW when I flew I dabbled with both styles but in the end game I prefered to fly SA-Realistic.  Leave the knife fighting to other folks.

[Urchin]

That is probably because a competent "knife fighter" can switch between E fighting and angles fighting with ease, whereas a "competent" BnZ'er has usually gone that route because he found angles fighting to hard.

[AKFokerFoder+]

Makes you neither better nor worse a pilot than someone with a different style.

My flying style in all probability makes me a worse pilot than most, although I think I have adequate flying skills.  I emulate the flying style of Manfred von Richtofen in his later days.  He may have survived the war if he hadn't blown his e to try and take out Lt. May, and got hammered by ground gunners.  

My style is not to be a great pilot, but to be an effective fighter pilot .  That is, to be an effective killer.

I am a heartless razor toting snake in the grass.  I never want to be the kind of pilot people admire, I want to be the kind of pilot people hate (which really translates to fear).

I am the "Hun in the sun", ever dangerous..., watching…, waiting…, out there somewhere…, ready to pounce at the time least expected.

You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six

[Urchin]

I don't really think anyone "fears" cherrypicking Bore N Zoomers, no matter how "good" they are.  

I think the strongest emotion most people playing the game to fight have for them is a mild sort of contempt.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I make lots of tracking shots, but I almost never saddle up on a bogey.  Saddling up is the best way I know of to bleed off your energy and get blown away.  This is not what that chart from Shaws book is intimating.

...

Well, FWIW, I do saddle up but only for short durations. Depending on the plane I'm in I have a mental "timer" if you will of just how many degrees of turn from saddled up I'll follow another plane type. When the timer goes off, I reverse to a tail-to-tail to gain separation and climb. In a 190, the timer is pretty damn short - in a Spit it's considerably longer.

While this can be somewhat riskier than pure BnZ it does have an interesting and useful effect on the bogey. And that is that he *sees* you saddled up - so he'll either crank in the turn or start going wildly evasive most of the time. What he don't know is I already made my decision on how far I'll follow him. As often as not by the time he re-acquires me I'm 2000 ft over him ready to dive again while he's now orbitting at 140 mph.

This leaves me the option to dive and attack, to feint, or if I took an unlucky hit along the way to just blow past him and head for home.

I also agree that the "knife fighting" skill set is a whole book of tricks unto itself. Some people like that kind of game, some people don't. It's a matter of choice. What I find really ignorant is folks who insist that if you aren't going round-and-round at 120 mph with flaps and gear hanging you're "ruining the game" or "not worthy of respect." For 17 years there's been room for several ways to play the game - that ain't changed a bit.

Oh ... as for dikta's ... here's the one I put together almost a decade ago: DiKta GonZo


As for the La-7 ... I dunno ... they always seem to be the first to die in any large engagement. Maybe the folks who fly 'em are mostly dweebs, or maybe they're the biggest threat so they get taken care of first. I think the La-5 is more dangerous - it's almost as tough to catch as the -7 and has a lot more manouever potential.

[AKFokerFoder+]

I think the strongest emotion most people playing the game to fight have for them is a mild sort of contempt.

Good enough for me

[Redd]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
My flying style in all probability makes me a worse pilot than most, although I think I have adequate flying skills.  I emulate the flying style of Manfred von Richtofen in his later days.  He may have survived the war if he hadn't blown his e to try and take out Lt. May, and got hammered by ground gunners.  

My style is not to be a great pilot, but to be an effective fighter pilot .  That is, to be an effective killer.

I am a heartless razor toting snake in the grass.  I never want to be the kind of pilot people admire, I want to be the kind of pilot people hate (which really translates to fear).

I am the "Hun in the sun", ever dangerous..., watching…, waiting…, out there somewhere…, ready to pounce at the time least expected.

You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six

I would hazard a guess to say , that you will get bored with this approach with time, and look to develop other skills.

A lot of people start out this way because it helps them stay alive a bit longer. The problem is ,  you aren't learning the envelope of your plane and how to fly it on the edge , or how to E-fight ...

So what happens when another plane comes along co-e or with E  ,   you run until you die ?

Grab Urchin some time and do some DA stuff in a 190 , you won't regret it.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Redd
...

Grab Urchin some time and do some DA stuff in a 190 , you won't regret it.

Urchin has done a fine job of documenting what he thinks of people who don't play the game his way. Why should anyone think he'd be willing to help?

[Urchin]

Actually, DoK is right.  I used to be, until people just stopped giving a ****.  Now I've got a hard time finding people that even know how to use the views right to make sure they don't lose track of an enemy, much less how to actually fight.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Urchin
Actually, DoK is right.  I used to be, until people just stopped giving a ****.  Now I've got a hard time finding people that even know how to use the views right to make sure they don't lose track of an enemy, much less how to actually fight.

All kidding aside ... is it really this bad now?

[dedalos]

Was any one asking what cherry picking was?

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
 Last night a spit was stall fighting a couple of my countrymen.  He reached the top of his arc, and I took his wing off as I zoomed by him at over 300 mph.  He probably still wonders where I came from