Why do I look there ?

[FFL341 Tym]

Many times I cannot get the lock to follow my target. My view still looks at the empty sky, in locked view, while my target gets away.

It does not have to do with field of view as the target can still be seen, If I switch to another view. Is that a bug or a feature ? If that's a feature what is it supposed to model ?

Most of the time it seems that the lock is one "movement" late. Just as if "lag" was the cause.

Worst, I frequently get a "rudder" view. My eyes look down to the floor of the plane. Am I vomiting of fainting ? Most of the time it's after a black out.

[LLv34_Snefens]

I am not so well into padlock, but I seem to remember someone posting something similar as this. I believe the problem was when the target was above you AH would change between the snap views in a not so clever way.

As for the "vomiting" view (hehe  ) this is AH's way of model pilot injury; slow blackouts combined with head swinging down. To be certain try press Ctrl+D next time it happens and see if "pilot" is written in red.
You will eventually die from your wounds in some minutes.

[FFL341 Tym]

Thank you Sneffens...

This sim is very disturbing a mixed bag of good features and roughly finished others...

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FFL341 Tym
Intelligence Officer
341 "Alsace" Squadron
http://sqdr341.free.fr

[Staga]

I dont even know how to use padlock...  

[SKurj]

Tym... my guess is an extremely small part of the community uses padlock.

Have a go without it +)


AKSKurj

[Lephturn]

Hmmm, it is possible that a hard blackout is breaking the padlock and leaving you looking at the floor.  I'll have to test this and see, as I have only used padlock for training purposes.  Are you always locking enemy planes, or are you trying to lock friendlies?  When you say the target can "still be seen", do you mean the icon or the actual plane?

If you really want good situational awareness in Aces High, you need to learn the snap-view system.  Aces High has the best viewing system I have ever seen, it's just a matter of picking modes to suit your tastes.  That said, although tougher to learn, the snap view system is the most efficient.  It will allow you to follow your opponent in your views while having a good orientation of your aircraft while still maintaining good SA.

I'll try out the padlock in the arena and see if I can duplicate any of the issues you are having.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[Hans]

The padalock will shut off when the airplane goes out of view behind your nose, behind your tail, or under you.

Practice against the drones, though you need to set the padalock to friendly targeting.

Hans.

[Andy Bush]

Lephturn

I've always found your comments to be excellent sources of info. But several times now, you've made the assertion that AH has the best view system of any sim 'you have ever seen'...which sorta raises the question of how many sims this might be!  

Or do you mean the best views of the WW2 sims?

The reason I ask is that my writing in this gaming genre makes it necessary that I be familiar with what the market has to offer...that, and the fact that viewing systems has always been a favorite subject of mine. While I think the fixed views in AH are well done as is the ability to customize them for a specific aircraft, I do not think that qualifies Ah as the 'best' in the viewing department.

I'm not sure what sim would hold that title, but Falcon4 comes about as close as any for my money.

Now, if AH were to implement a player to target external view and a workable padlock...then I'd be willing to rethink the question!!

Andy

[Jekyll]

 

Now, if AH were to implement a player to target external view and a workable padlock...then I'd be willing to rethink the question!!

Geez Andy.. you mean in real life you can jump out of your aircraft, take a good long 'player-target' view, then jump back in the plane to continue the fight?

Wow.. I knew those new US fighters were advanced, but that's fantastic !  

I think what Lephturn meant to say is that AH has the best 'realistic' viewing options of any sim he's flown.  i.e. no 'magic' or 'God' views when in fighters etc.

Well, except for the 6 view, that is  



------------------
=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps

[SKurj]

IMO padlock is just a computerized form of target fixation.  I can Padlock just fine with my hat switch thank you.

I've played many flight sims from Harrier Jump Jet on a 286 to Falcon 3, Aces of the pacific, Red baron, to every boxed ww2 sim rerleased in the last 2 years, falcon 4, Air Warrior, and now aces high.

Throwing out the external (unrealistic) views  Aces is by far the best view system I've used.  Air Warrior gave the ability to completely remove obstructions (cept for front windscreen guages etc) which is unrealistic...  The customizability of the AH views makes it tops in my books.

AKskurj

[Vermillion]

Oh boy... Andy did you open a Big Ole Can of Worms.

Yes there are games out there with view systems that have very interesting and configureable view systems.

But! Are they competitive, player versus player online games? At least as their primary intent and focus?(not including small H2H functions)

You of all people Andy, should know the old axiom.

"Lose sight, lose fight"

How do you do this in a game like Aces High, without giving an artifical advantage to players using systems like Padlock?

And all you pro-Padlock players, please don't try to convince me that Padlock simulates how a pilots eye's work. It doesn't. A pilots eye's won't track a bandit thru area's where the pilot loses sight of the enemy (ie under the tail, behind a wing, etc.) and then continuously and effortlessly picks the "lock" back up when the enemy comes back into view.

And thats just one of the "magic" tricks that most padlock systems in todays games have. Others call it a "crutch".

So what Hitech tried too do, was build a padlock system that does not confer an artifical advantage to padlock users, while still maintaining functionality.

Did it succeed? Not to listen to Padlock users, and I don't use them myself.

It sounds like Tym's problem, is that he's losing lock (the enemy con is disappearing just for a second behind an obstruction) and he needs to relock the target.

My advice to Tym is to learn to use the normal view system. In a multi enemy environment like AH, padlock just gets you killed.

But Andy, what would you do to make the current padlock system "workable", without being unrealistic and confering advantages to a padlock player?

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[FFL341 Tym]

Hi all,

I warmly thank Snefens for his clever insights.

As for padlock, I don't think a well implemented padlock would be an error. The way it is there is a slight problem I think.

It may not be the best of thing to rely on it, I know. But it would be nice if you were not left the nose in the sky when you lose track, or worse still tracking a phantom plane... I think it is just a little bug to be cleaned off.

I do not want any unfair advantage using it, still anybody can use it, can't they ?

I have a sicking feeling this thread shows some "elitism" on the part of too many people. I note that the more helpful are the less elitist... This is something that always kept me away from those arena games. It seems that AH is just attracting those very same people. A pity... I guess I'll hapilly remain a dweeb...

------------------
FFL341 Tym
Intelligence Officer
341 "Alsace" Squadron
http://sqdr341.free.fr

[Andy Bush]

'Can of worms'...? No...not as long as we have spirited, yet considerate responses as the last posts have shown.

When it comes to viewing systems, we all get to pick the one we like the best...or we should get to pick one. Each person's take on 'what it really looks like' is unique, and it would be truly wonderful if a sim offered all choices to its players. But, they don't.

AH probably has the most inclusive, most adaptive set of fixed views I've ever seen. They are very well done.

But do fixed views provide a feel for 'what it looks like for real'?

I don't think so, and I've written much on why. I don't try to persuade anyone to forego their own preference...I try to explain how the RL BFM experience can best be replicated in a sim.

I go back to my RL experience and use that to explain how BFM is taught in RL...how the student is taught to visualize the three dimensional environment...how advantage and disadvantage is conferred through split-plane maneuvering.

Is it possible to do that in a sim? To a great extent, yes. It's called the 'player to target' external view. It provides essentially the same perspective on an engagement that the RL BFM instructor does when he uses stick models (or his hands)...and in today's high tech world, that is still how BFM is taught.

I have always thought that if we took two players of equal competence...one who favored fixed views, the other one who uses the external...and let them duke it out, the external guy would be in the other's chili...every time!

Why? Because the external view provides as much of the whole picture as is possible...the fixed view can't (without constant switching views).

To me, the challenge in using fixed views is in manipulating the views. The advantage goes to the person with the most configurable flight stick/throttle...the person that has to use the key board is at a disadvantage. It's all a matter of time. If you want to know the academics of this, see my BFM articles that go into the OODA Loop concept ("It's All a Matter of Perspective" series, Air Combat Corner, www.simhq.com).

This view management becomes the focus in BFM when using the fixed views...as Verm says, "Lose sight, lose fight". This is all well and true. Keeping a tally is obviously critical.

But so is lift vector control and horizon awareness...and here the fixed viewing system is less effective.

The result...in my opinion...is that the fixed view folks spend more time in manipulating the views to maintain a tally than they do in lift vector orientation. It's not that they don't understand BFM...it's just the limitation of the views...the fixed view simply does provide enough of the 'big picture' in any one look.

The external player target view does...at least as much as we can expect considering the limitations of a computer monitor.

Folks have been anti-external for a good ten years now...much of it began with anti-cheat issues when on-line play became popular with Falcon3.

Others put aside the view on the grounds that it is 'unrealistic'. While I fully support their freedom of choice in the matter, at some point, the issue gets academic. That's what I tried to get into in my articles.

One other issue crops up in this discussion...the one of situational awareness (SA). Fixed view folks say that they have better SA because they can slew the view around to watch what's going on around them. No argument there...the fixed view system does that well...unlike the padlock or external system.

The problem is that in RL, once engaged, pilots have little opportunity to 'scan around'. It just doesn't happen...at least not much. That's what wingmen are for!

It's a shame that you guys with all your super enthusiasm cannot experience a furball for real. I've been in fights where upwards of 30 aircraft all came together at once...all with one objective in mind...killing the bandit! SA? Forget it...you won't believe how that goes out the window once the fight starts. Each pilot has three goals...pick out a target and kill it...keep from being someone else's target...and keep from running into somebody else.

I've seen all three goals met...and not met.

So, where are we in all this? I'd like to see two things. One, everyone be as smart as possible about how BFM is flown...and second, that we all afford each other the option of picking how we make that happen.

Fixed views, padlock, external...no matter. Let's just have some fun and be as inclusive as we can in the process!

Andy


[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 12-26-2000).]

[SKurj]

No No Tym, Verm maybe did come out a little strong +)

IMO padlock has never issued anyone an unfair advantage.  Its magical abilities to track a target through sections of the sky obscured are IMO outweighed by the ease of fixation.

I really haven't tried the padlock system in Aces.  I used to use the padlock in Falcon 3.0 years ago, but I found myself getting sooo disoriented it was useless to me in the end.  My first experience with a game without padlock was good old Flying Circus!!    After that came Air Warrior, and I've never looked back!
 Every sim or game offers padlock view these days, and frankly I don't use it at all, I have found my own control of the pilot's eyes much more intuitive (plus it doesn't make me sick..   )


I suggest you all step away from this thread ASAP!! better yet close eet.  This is one of the most abrasive arguements in flight sims today, and we don't want that Hengist dude in here do we?

P.S.  I'll mess with padlock and see if i can find out what u mean Tym.

AKskurj

[FFL341 Tym]

I thank you SKurj and Andy Bush for your "positive" posts. The view system should be as realistic as possible, padlock included, enough said.

Now the question about the disadvantage one gets by using a padlock is another topic entirely. I know alot of virtual pilots that used the padlock in a sim, and left it behind in Aces High. There's nothing with it for me : it's likely padlock is simply reflecting lack of SA (focusing on only one target). But if one is included (I think it should be), it must be a good one... Now for the definition of good, every one is feft to his opinion.

But please, don't simply tell : "padlock's for dweed", it's useless.

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FFL341 Tym
Intelligence Officer
341 "Alsace" Squadron
http://sqdr341.free.fr