P-47 Zoom Climb

[RGJ]

I have always been lead to believe that the P-47 Zoom Climb is one of the best(just read Robert S Johnson's book:-) to confirm it), is it modeled correct in AH?

Can anyone tell me any tips on what is the best angle, speed, etc in AH for the P-47 Zoom?  

RGJ

[Mark Luper]

RGJ,
You seemed to have that down pretty well the two times we encountered each other yesterday  .

I generally just zoom up with a relativly low G climb unless I need to get some alt really quick. I will often set my auto climb speed to 250 in case I black out at the bottom of zoom so I can engage it long enough to get my sight back.

The climb will be affected in large part by the speed of the dive, of course, and as I told you yesterday, if you will disable combat trim and use your up/down trim key to trim up some you can generally get that 47 diving really fast without too much loss of control.

Another thing about the dives, Lephturn posted once about doing zero G dives and I have been doing that and find the 47 accelerates spectacularly when you do that. I just push over, and generally get a mild red-out, and maintain a zero or minus G dive to get away from a con.

Hope this helps.

[Lephturn]

Yes, a zero G dive will help the Jug accelerate much faster.  Be careful about pushing negative G's though, as you start generating lift in the other direction, and you end up with some induced drag that way, just as if you were pulling positive G's.  The only time I'll push negative G's is to get to a steeper dive angle quickly, but 90% of the time if you hold it around 0G on the G meter you will leave just about everything in your exhaust.    The time you want to push some negative G's and get pointed down fast is when you are starting from a low speed (say under 250 Mph) and there is a machine chasing you with much better acceleration.  In that case, you need to get to high speed right away, and pushing some neg G to get a steep dive angle quickly may help.  Overall though, it's not the most efficient way to do it.  

One note about comparing what we have with Johnson's book.  Johnson didn't fly a "production" Jug.  The mechanics that maintained his bird had done some modifications to "Lucky" including the common field modification of changing the wastegate pressures in the turbo system.  His P-47 pulled 72" WG, a heck of a lot more than we pull in our bone stock rides.  Because of the extra power, Johnson's bird could do things our Jugs in AH can't.  Heck, boosting it to that degree it starts to get closer to a P-47 M!  I believe "Lucky" also had the rivets ground down, and was polished by the mechanics for less drag.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[-ammo-]

RJG-

ya need to email me and I will meet you in the TA.

as far as the jug's ability to zoom, or as some say..it's got alot of smash. An AC that has that much weight, going 400+ in a dive is gonna retian that in a zoom climb much better than a lighter AC. Its really is that simple.

Just remember as with any AC, its not wise to go vertical with an enemy whos has an equal amount of energy on your 6, he can still zoom inside your zoom for a shot. Now at least in AH that is the case, whether it was in WW2 I dont know, but have thought about that much. Zemke stated that the jug zoomed like no other.

The Jug has a few other tricks too. the more you fly it, the more you learn. It means some bumps along the way for sure.

Again, as I said in the TA, get with me at  jwels3@nc.rr.com  and we can go over it. We are fortunate here to have more than a couple of trainers that have a "thing" for the P-47. Lephturn, markAT, adn myself, and I believe an old trainer "ripsnot", is a decent jug driver.

<S> ammo

   

[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 03-24-2001).]

[Mark Luper]

Good point Leph, about the negative G's, had not really given it that much thought. When I find myself in the situation I need it I am generaly anxious and do push over fast to accelerate as quickly as possible.

Ammo, are you talking about Ripsnort?

[[Sg]ShotGun]

my d30 got run down by a Chog...we HOd, he went up...i pushed over to get away...it turned into a long NOE chase with me losing in the end.

after his loop at the top, he was just a black dot so that meant over d6 away.

i understand how much E he wood have gained from the dive, but at the seperation we were at, he continued to gain, albeit slowely at the end, at me.

why wont the 2 planes lose E to their max SL speeds?

wont my 4 blade fan pull me a little more faster than him? and therefor result in a stalemate?

m i just too much mass to pull thru the air fast enuff?

[[Sg]ShotGun]

never mind
i found the speed chart..  

[Wardog]

Ran into ammo in his p47 the other night and i upped in a Tempest. Was a good fight. Here i am thinking i had a vertical advantage. Sure he was low E and could not climb, i rolled over the top to soon, he kept comin and cut me in 1/2. After 3 loops or so i was sure he would be outa E. He told me that he dove to regain his E state. It realy didnt take him to much to regain E, looked to me it was a short shallow dive. But it was enough to zoom vertical to me.

BTW was a great fight ammo <S>.......


Dog out..........

[Lephturn]

Shotgun,

Yes, the F4U is a very dangerous adversary for the Jug.  It is better than the P-47 in almost every way.  It is faster, turns better, retains E better, and if it's the C model even has better guns.  The Hog is almost as tough as the Jug to boot.  I don't know how they compare in climb, but they both suck at it.  You can't dive away from a Hog, it can dive just as well and is faster at the bottom.

Basically, if you get into a tangle with an F4U and you do not have an E advantage, you are in deep trouble.  Your only hope is to use flaps when slow, conserver your E, and be very aggressive.  Blast him in the face if he gives you a shot.  If you are losing, use a descending spiral or scissors and try to suck him in to overshooting.  Don't try to run, you'll get caught.  You have to fight it out.

Wardog,
The one thing the Jug can do very well is dive.  Even a short duration 0 G dive will wind the Jug up pretty quick.  On top of that, the Jug is very docile at low speed.  While it is pretty sluggish a turner at low speeds, it can keep it's nose up at very low speed with a bit of flap and some manual trim.  We Jug pilots use this to our advantage.  We'll often 0G dive for some speed, and if you try to go over the top in guns range, the Jug can zoom even from low speed and hang on it's prop long enough to get you.  Sounds like this is exactly what ammo did to you.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[-ammo-]

<S> Wardog, and all the rest. reguarding that meeting with wardog in the MA. Initially we met with him a good 5K of alt and a wingman and I reversed directions put the AC in a nose down aspect to gather speed, I wanted around 350 IAS. during this WD and his Wingy broke off out of icon range. I zoomed and immeled giving me another 4k and heading back torward them. Here they come and its obvious we are going to merge. However his wingy breaks off and engages another friendly. Now its WD and I with him about 2k of advantage but I am at a high energy state. He engages, I nose and he pursues, he closes to 1k my 6 ad I initiate a slow barrel roll and he goes into a zoom, smartly avoiding the overshoot. Keep in mind that at this point we are both at 17-18K. The fight never went under this either. You can tell energy type fighters, they like to work the fight upward if possible. When he zooms, I do to, keeps me under his 6 but still not a threat to him. We come out of the zoom with him rolling back under and goes into a loop. I do the same but this is important... Instead of attempting to get inside or matching his loop, I go into lag pursuit in his loop. You see if I would have tried to stay inside his loop and gain angles my E would have bled off at an atrocious rate. So around we go in vertical loops, canopy to canopy, WD is trying to pull his nose inside to get a guns on me, while I pull just hard enough to stay out of guns and build speed in the downward part of the loop. As his AC bleeds energy (apparently to me) I am building it. It eventually pays off on the 3rd loop when I got enough for the faithful P-47 to be at its best corner speed. I see my shot oppertunty and pull the nose hard and press the tit hitting his AC starting in the cowling and the bullet stream goes the length of his fuselage. The only reason I was able to beat WD's tempest was from energy management and his commitment to getting inside my loop. If he had extended and gathered speed and altitude from the first pass, then made fast passes it would have probably went the other way.

In any case, I bit my fingernails <S> wardog. <S> leph too, hes truly a p-47 guru guys, listen to the man There is some good P-47 sticks in this bunch, anyone will be glad to help you RGJ. I hope to be able to get up with you on Saturday or Sunday.

<S>

[-ammo-]

deleted...duh double post

[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 03-27-2001).]

[Lephturn]

Well, I got schooled last night big time.

I had a couple of great fights with Drex.  <S>!

His D-25, my D-30.

First one, I am on climb-out with 75% internal and a drop tank.  When I see his dot, I punch the tank.  He is 5k above or so, but I climb the other way and then ease around tracking the dot (I don't know it's him yet).  He comes back at me, lower now but fast fast fast.  Now at this point I know this isn't just any dweeb.  There are not many folks in the arena who hide the Jug's E in speed and control closure, but I am watching this guy do it... textbook.  Hmmm.  I still have about 50% in my Aux tank.  I merge with this D-25 who is obviously smart enought to merge fast.  He curves in now from my low 11:00, as I try to dive down to him and remove the separation.  We work a bit, he reverses faster than I expect and he gets an oil hit as we pass nose to nose.  Ruh roh again.. this ain't your average bear.  His first turn and hit rattles me for a second, and he gains angles.  We twist and turn down to the deck.  I suck him in with a descending spiral and get a shot as he overshoots.  Minor pings.  He regains my six and we end up scissoring on the deck.  I force one more overshoot and get minor pings, but the Jug is feeling real heavy with gas, and I can't keep it up... he tags me and I go down minus a wing.  Whew.

Second fight... an La7 interrupts with more E.  Drex is extrememly cool, and backs off and watches.  The Lavochkin is all over me, but I force repeated overshoots and get a few pings.  Bad luck and bad gunnery on my part... no damage.  I hold him off and get the odd ping until I run out of WEP. (This was a LONG fight)  Then I just can't keep her nose up anymore and my scissors are too slow, La7 gets a burst in and gets my engine... I stall and spin it in.  Ok I died, but I pinged him up and it took him 10 minutes to get me.  It was an AWESOME fight.

Third fight... I find Drex again.  I have E this time, and only took 50% gas and a drop tank which I punched as I got to 10k on climb out.  He merges well, and at least I don't get smoked quite as fast this time.  I attack at too steep an angle, Drex does what ammounts to a scissors, I overshoot, and he's on my six.  Ruh roh, this was not part of the plan.  Ping ping... I dive for speed and get some separation.. I'm still alive!  Unfortunately, Drex now knows I who he is fighting, so he plays it VERY cagey.  He uses great globs of lag pursuit and manages the closure very carefully.  He stays 500 or so back and refuses to get sucked in by my descending spiral, scissors, or anything else.  Every time I try a sucker move, he stays well back and lets me burn my E, then starts to close when I'm done flopping about.  He works me down lower and lower.  After I try one last scissor, he waits until my speed and E has dropped, and then eases in for the kill.  I get blown into very small bits.    <S> Drex.

I have to admit, I was really discouraged at first.  Drex straightened me out though.  I was a bit frustrated at biting it three times in a row 1v1... but after I managed to wrestle my ego down, I realized how valuable and FUN the fights had been.  I learned some good stuff there.  I think I scissored better in those fights then I ever have.  I learned how powerful a bit of horizontal separation combined with vertical is at the merge.  I learned how dangerous it is to close too fast and attack at too steep an angle when attacking a good pilot.

BTW, somebody smack me in the head next time I get into a fight like that and forget to turn on the film.  GAAAAAAAAAAH!  I can't believe I didn't film that.  Leph vs. Drex in Jugs... I'm sure you guys would have loved to see that film.  Well, I hope I my post illustrated the fights reasonably well in any case.  Next time I run into Drex online I'll be sure to film it so you all can watch me get schooled too.  

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Lephturn]

BTW guys... I made a post you may want to check out here:  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001914.html

It's about how to handle the P-47 vs. D9 fight.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Westy]

Nice discussion  

 I think I'm done my Yak "thing". The challeng with that plane was to get in close and make the shots count due to the smal ammo load. I hear old faithful calling me back, especially after reading these 'aar's  

-Westy

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
Well, I got schooled last night big time.

I had a couple of great fights with Drex.  <S>!

His D-25, my D-30.

First one, I am on climb-out with 75% internal and a drop tank.  When I see his dot, I punch the tank.  He is 5k above or so, but I climb the other way and then ease around tracking the dot (I don't know it's him yet).  He comes back at me, lower now but fast fast fast.  Now at this point I know this isn't just any dweeb.  There are not many folks in the arena who hide the Jug's E in speed and control closure, but I am watching this guy do it... textbook.  Hmmm.  I still have about 50% in my Aux tank.  I merge with this D-25 who is obviously smart enought to merge fast.  He curves in now from my low 11:00, as I try to dive down to him and remove the separation.  We work a bit, he reverses faster than I expect and he gets an oil hit as we pass nose to nose.  Ruh roh again.. this ain't your average bear.  His first turn and hit rattles me for a second, and he gains angles.  We twist and turn down to the deck.  I suck him in with a descending spiral and get a shot as he overshoots.  Minor pings.  He regains my six and we end up scissoring on the deck.  I force one more overshoot and get minor pings, but the Jug is feeling real heavy with gas, and I can't keep it up... he tags me and I go down minus a wing.  Whew.

Second fight... an La7 interrupts with more E.  Drex is extrememly cool, and backs off and watches.  The Lavochkin is all over me, but I force repeated overshoots and get a few pings.  Bad luck and bad gunnery on my part... no damage.  I hold him off and get the odd ping until I run out of WEP. (This was a LONG fight)  Then I just can't keep her nose up anymore and my scissors are too slow, La7 gets a burst in and gets my engine... I stall and spin it in.  Ok I died, but I pinged him up and it took him 10 minutes to get me.  It was an AWESOME fight.

Third fight... I find Drex again.  I have E this time, and only took 50% gas and a drop tank which I punched as I got to 10k on climb out.  He merges well, and at least I don't get smoked quite as fast this time.  I attack at too steep an angle, Drex does what ammounts to a scissors, I overshoot, and he's on my six.  Ruh roh, this was not part of the plan.  Ping ping... I dive for speed and get some separation.. I'm still alive!  Unfortunately, Drex now knows I who he is fighting, so he plays it VERY cagey.  He uses great globs of lag pursuit and manages the closure very carefully.  He stays 500 or so back and refuses to get sucked in by my descending spiral, scissors, or anything else.  Every time I try a sucker move, he stays well back and lets me burn my E, then starts to close when I'm done flopping about.  He works me down lower and lower.  After I try one last scissor, he waits until my speed and E has dropped, and then eases in for the kill.  I get blown into very small bits.    <S> Drex.

I have to admit, I was really discouraged at first.  Drex straightened me out though.  I was a bit frustrated at biting it three times in a row 1v1... but after I managed to wrestle my ego down, I realized how valuable and FUN the fights had been.  I learned some good stuff there.  I think I scissored better in those fights then I ever have.  I learned how powerful a bit of horizontal separation combined with vertical is at the merge.  I learned how dangerous it is to close too fast and attack at too steep an angle when attacking a good pilot.

BTW, somebody smack me in the head next time I get into a fight like that and forget to turn on the film.  GAAAAAAAAAAH!  I can't believe I didn't film that.  Leph vs. Drex in Jugs... I'm sure you guys would have loved to see that film.  Well, I hope I my post illustrated the fights reasonably well in any case.  Next time I run into Drex online I'll be sure to film it so you all can watch me get schooled too.  

You dingleberry, remember film, film, film!!!!   Oh wait I forgot too..oops.

great AAR leph, I cant remeber any of the few run-ins Ive had with drex where I won. Hes a monster in any AC. But then again so are you.