Marines war criminals?

[GRUNHERZ]

GS the insurgentrs do not meet several of the  requirements, most notably they repeatedly do not follow rules of war.

Legally there is more than enough room to deny them POW privelages if it goes to trial...

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by GScholz
If they are shooting at "real soldiers" then they are by definition not terrorists, but guerrillas or otherwise known as irregular forces. And they are protected by the GC ... everyone is. Even civilians taking up arms against an invading enemy.

IIRC the Japanese never signed the GC, they used this as an excuse to torture and behead legitimate POWs. I find it idiotic that the GC can apply to one of the sides in a conflict but not the other simply becasue they refused to sign it. Does anyone have any evidence that Muqtada or Zawahiri, or whichever al ****e-for-brains ever signed onto the GC?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by GScholz
Now it is my turn to ask for proof. Please provide evidence that these men (the ones that got shot) did not follow the rules of war. And what other requirements did they not meet?

From above.  The insurgents dont play by the rules, thats established. Here is how it applies to the group and all its members.

"Authorities agree that the first three conditions are applicable to the irregular group collectively, while the final three conditions apply both to the group collectively and its individual members. Thus, if a majority of the members of the group fail to meet, for whatever reason, all or any of the last three conditions at any time, then all members of the group will not qualify for privileged combatant and POW status upon capture. Unlike privileged combatants, therefore, unprivileged combatants can be tried and punished for all their hostile acts, even if they otherwise did not violate the laws of war. It should be understood, however, that unprivileged combatants are not as such war criminals although their specific acts might breach the laws of war."

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
If I were that marine unit now yanno what I would do?

Insist the embedded reporter check to see if these guys are really dead or not from now on.

I LOVE IT!


All CNN personnel...TO THE FRONT!

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by GScholz
First, I have not displayed any rage over this incident.

Secondly, I have yet to read someone here arguing that the rebels/whatever were justified in opening fire under a truce (white flag). It's a given that they are not. However I am seeing people here trying to justify shooting four unarmed POWs.

Okay, I thought you're original post was full of rage, but I am mistaken.

As far as the defending in this thread goes, when the enemy uses unusual and cruel means to kill, it tends to rub off on the opposing party.  That said, I think the Marine should be brought to justice (which he is).

[GRUNHERZ]

Sure we signed the GC, but there are rules in the GCs that allow for people not to have POW rights.

Anyway good discussion GS, I tried hard to resist my usual temptations in these arguments and it turned out ok.

And yea this should certainly be investigated and taken very seriously.  

Gotta log for now.

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by GScholz
However I am seeing people here trying to justify shooting four unarmed POWs.

They were not proven to be unarmed (hand not in the air) and they were not POWs (arrested/bound/detained). You are right about the poor judgement of the marine in question though. He should not have walked up to those guys and shot them when they moved, he should have lobbed a nade in there and then moved on to the next room. In his shoes at that moment I'd have done the same thing. I could sleep with the death of another terrorist on my shoulder, but not with the death of a buddy beacuse I hesitated.

[JBA]

I don’t blame him. Read this first.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138507,00.html

mutilated body of what they believe was a Western woman during a sweep of a street in central Fallujah.

From the Washington post last week.
…..Arms and Legs had been hacked off, and the face disfigured…..
The body was lying in the street covered with a blood-soaked cloth.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Natonski also said he had visited a "slaughterhouse" in the northern Jolan neighborhood where hostages were held and possibly killed by militants. He described a small room with no windows and just one door. He said he saw two thin mattresses, straw mats covered in blood and a wheelchair that apparently was used to transport captives.

Also, a Fox News reporter embedded with India Company of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment said the unit found five bodies in a locked house in northwest Fallujah on Wednesday.

All the victims were shot in the back of the head.

 Their identities were not known, although there were indications they were civilians, the report said.

U.S. officials believe the al-Qaida-linked terror movement of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who claimed responsibility for many of the kidnappings and beheadings of foreign hostages, used Fallujah as a base. They said they believe al-Zarqawi may have slipped away before the offensive.


[I think I might have felt this way too.]
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20041116/2004-11-16T142730Z_01_N16187653_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-FALLUJA-INVESTIGATION-DC.html

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

[AWMac]

So Panama was Vietnam? Was Grenada Vietnam? Was GW1 Vietnam? They all had reporters showing fighting.

Ahem... If I recall correctly Grenada was off limits for the press Rip.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by AWMac
Ahem... If I recall correctly Grenada was off limits for the press Rip.

Off limits to imbedded reporters, yes. To the press in general? I don't think so... if it was, then how did we get these pics shown to us on the evening news?

[Suave]

UH oh spagettios! Turns out the iraqis were shot up by a different unit of marines, and given medical treatment by the same unit that shot them up on friday, then that unit moved on and left the wounded iraqis there. Then next marine unit comes along on monday, and shoots an unarmed man in the head who had surrendered on friday.

Marines and soldiers are taught that any enemy body maybe fiegning dead, and or booby trapped. And they are also taught how to deal with it. Which is, one man in prone positing covering the body in question with his weapon, while other man aproaches body with weapon slung on his back and checks for traps, ID papers etc. If any funny buisness occurs the searcher rolls the body back onto the object or whatever and dives aside as the covering soldier opens up and hoses the enemy.

Saying a wounded soilder is faking death and shooting him in the head almost sounds like a pretty funny inside joke. If you're into that sort of gallows humor.

[Suave]

Now that you mention Panama, a very similar incedent occurred in just cause. A pow surrendered with a hidden grenade. At an opportune moment, he used the grenade and killed some 82nd troopers. A company First Sargeant shot and killed the panamanian some time later. That First Sargean was court marshalled.

[Rude]

What took place by this marine is nothing new to war....right or wrong, the same has existed by all sides throughout all time.

He will be dealt with and one thing for certain....ROE by US troops do not include the killing of unarmed and wounded combatants....to imply they do by anyone here merely shows your ignorance.

The days of clean and tidy Geneva laced fighting have been over for some time now....the western world seems to be the only players to attempt to abide by such noble warrants.

Bottom line.....war is ALWAYS horrific.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
GS the insurgentrs do not meet several of the  requirements, most notably they repeatedly do not follow rules of war.

Legally there is more than enough room to deny them POW privelages if it goes to trial...

If other incedents in Iraq deny these insurgents the rights of combatants then this act denies the US soldiers the rights of combatants.

In general though. If an enemy is commited to just inflicting casualties on your side. And you have seen a few of them deliberatly blow themselves up just to get a few of you while you follow the rules..the rules go out the windows.
Those men have an obligation to keep themselves safe. Obviosly there comanders had issued orders to them to watch for certain sitations with enemy wounded and this guy thought he saw that situation.
Put people in that kind of cituation and they will do what they have to do and what makes sense to them at the time.

[Monk]

I guess it could have been worse.  He could have beheaded him, or better yet, hung his body from a bridge.  

Just think how much pressure packs cost nowadays.  You got to start saving somewhere.