Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[MiloMorai]

8th AF

Sunday, 18 March 1945
     
    Mission 894: 1,329 bombers and 733 fighters

Wednesday, 4 April 1945
   
    Mission 926: 1,431 bombers and 866 fighters

Tuesday, 10 April 1945
   
    Mission 938: 1,315 bombers and 905 fighters

Wednesday, 25 April 1945
     
    Mission 968: 589 bombers and 486 fighters

http://www.jcs-group.com/military/usaaf/hethel4.html



With all those targets to choose from, the LW was bound to have some success.

[Angus]

Ohhh, what a lovely post.
Finally in the open, a slug-out thread between my-humble-self and the swastika-tattooed-arse-side-barbi-doll.
Oh, what a lovely war.

Want to discuss aerodynamics Barbi-brown? BB.

Well, it goes to wing design, power, props, drag and the mythical things like washout, downwash, dihedral and such.

You just informed me that the 109E had more power at 87 oct than the Spitfire MkI. I don't have the energy to look into that old thread closely, so I'll just for this round just take for granted that you are right.
Well, Why does the Spitty still pull more Newtons to altitude?
Can you explain that?
With 109 superb propeller, wing, engine, power, lightweight, slats, and so, then Why????
In the open, I just state that the big wing of the Spitty provides more lift. Allright? And since the humble Merlin provides even less power than I thought, the danged wing seems to provide even more lift than I had anticipated.

Anyway, this thread has already taken another course, trying to prove that Germany possibly may have lost WW2. Oh my goodness,,,,,,,,

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Angus
Ohhh, what a lovely post.
Finally in the open, a slug-out thread between my-humble-self and the swastika-tattooed-arse-side-barbi-doll.
Oh, what a lovely war.

 

 

Angus,

Barbi, though your twist gave me smile, comes from abbreviating one of Izzy's nicks, Barbarossa Isegrim. Others abbreviations given on the old OnWar forum were BI, Barb and Babs.

[Arlo]

I don't care what all her names are, I just wish she'd stop posting when her personalities reach that time of the month (their cycles are obviously in synch).  Telling Angus to keep all of his Spitfire comparisons and comments in this thread so the rest of the threads can focus on the Luftwaffe without having to make "unfair" comparisons seems a tad bit eccentric .... at best.

[Kurfürst]

Not much of an intelligence showing up on your side, Angiebangie. Is it frozen pinguin***** that you carry inside your skull, or just every single head-in-his-butt icelandic serf in your undoubtfully in-bred family had born this way?

IMHO, constant replies to a thread - which has the declared purpose of discussing design aspects seperately to leave other threads clean  - like :

"Anyway, this thread has already taken another course, trying to prove that Germany possibly may have lost WW2. Oh my goodness"


means that we have a problem on your side, a big&permanent problem. You fled from an open competion to underline your POV. Of course you it`s hard to prove your point if you have none...

As I see it, we have two retards here, one who is spending his life flaming and keeping some sort of register on my nicks, the other spends his life inside the nice&warn&dark cavity of his butt, periodically emitting his thoughts/mantra to the outside about brown guys, Spitfires and conspiracies, but the rest of the world only percieves the smell but no real message.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Not much of an intelligence showing up on your side, Angiebangie. Is it frozen pinguin*****(no penguins around Iceland, Barbi) that you carry inside your skull, or just every single head-in-his-butt icelandic serf of your undoubtfully in-bred family had born this way?

IMHO, constant replies to a thread - with the purpose to discuss design aspects seperately to leave other threads clean  - like :

"Anyway, this thread has already taken another course, trying to prove that Germany possibly may have lost WW2. Oh my goodness"


means that we have a problem on your side, a big&permanent problem. But it pleases me to see that you fled from an open competion so miserably. Of course you can`t prove your point if you have none...

We have two retards here, one who is spending his life flaming and keeping some sort of register on my nicks, the other spends his life inside the nice&warn&dark cavity of his butt, periodically emitting his thoughts to the outside about brown guys, Spitfires and conspiracies, but the rest of the world only percieves the smell.

Time to have this thread locked.

The originator, Barbi, is in-capable of having a civil discussion, starting with his first post with a reference to urinating and finally resorting to name calling, saying feces for brains, ethnic/nationality and family insults, as well as reference to his favourite body orfice, the annus (why he has this facination with this area of the body is anyone's guess? ).  

But then when you are an intelligent lawyer, that is the gutter prose one expects, right?




Angus, don't let Barbi get to you. He is not worth it.

[Kurfürst]

Glad you found the colored text capabilities of this this BB, along with bold text, underline, BIG TEXT, and the smiley repertoare.

As for Angie, if he is man enough to call others a nazi in every second line of his posts, I guess he is man to take some counter-battery fire as well and not run for mummy.

But you acting as a stalwart defender of civil discussion, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

PS : Funny that I have no problem of having a civil - and very enjoyable! - discussion with Guppy. But I guess such discussion requires the will/capability to exist in both parties.

This thread was created for discussion of that topic. I, Karnak, and Guppy did that. You two only flamed so far.

[Furball]

Well, the Me-109 was obviously the war winning wonder weapon Hitler was looking for if it was as good as he says, shame for Kurfurst he didnt realise earlier...

Funny, i have never seen a Spitfire pilot criticise the aircraft.  Yet i have seen many quotes from LW pilots reffering to their "inferior" aircraft.

Stats (correct or incorrect) are what you make of them, the confidence an aircraft instills in the pilot when he is going into combat is what matters.

[Angus]

From the fluttering urinating Barbidoll
"means that we have a problem on your side, a big&permanent problem. You fled from an open competion to underline your POV. Of course you it`s hard to prove your point if you have none...

As I see it, we have two retards here, one who is spending his life flaming and keeping some sort of register on my nicks, the other spends his life inside the nice&warn&dark cavity of his butt, periodically emitting his thoughts/mantra to the outside about brown guys, Spitfires and conspiracies, but the rest of the world only percieves the smell but no real message."

I have to say, as much as I hate to, that your English is improving.
I have to say, that I still think you are frosen in the Hort Wessel theme.
And
What's brown and sounds like a bell?





DUNG

[Kurfürst]

the confidence an aircraft instills in the pilot when he is going into combat is what matters.

Maybe that`s why the all-time top 3 fighter pilots of the world all 109 pilots : Hartman, Barkhorn and Rall. Spitty pilots? Somewhere at the bottom of that list...

Funny these references to quotes from never-named pilots.. Funny I have never seen any actual 109 pilot criticize the 109 as a fighter. Werner Moelders believed the Spitfire was miserable as a fighter, only one class better than the Hurricane, and from what RAF pilots said, well, hmm, Johnson said they were close, sometimes one gaining the advantage then the other, Godwin, another Spitty pilot didn`t go as far, but admitted it was 'almost as good' as his own ride. Combine what they say and you got it about right. Moelders flew all three, and knocked down 25 Spits himself. Perhaps Johnson also flew the 109, and maybe knocked down a dozen, I don`t know how many.

That`s so far about pilot opinions. The combat record is different. Many 109 pilots shot down more of just Spitfires in a few months than the combined score of the best Spitty pilots, containing very plane type. If you look at the Spitty`s combat record vs. the 109 over Dunkirk, England, and Africa, it doesn`t shine either. Makes you understand why it is right to refer to the 109 as a 'Jaeger' ('Hunter').

Yep paper performance is one thing, combat record is another.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Ok, here`s a thread to end all other threads in this subject. Angie can mess here when he feels so, and leave the other threads clean.

Hear, Angie? If that Spitfire Supreme thing of yours comes up next time, urinate here, not in other threads.

Your first post Barbi.

As can be seen, you were the first with the flame. You continued in your second post with the flaming.

As for, "Glad you found the colored text capabilities of this this BB, along with bold text, underline, BIG TEXT, and the smiley repertoare.", I knew how to do that a long time ago. For you, it is required.


As for the losses on March 18,

W.Nr 110808 flown by Oblt Wegmann
W.Nr. 110780 flown by Oblt Seeler
W.Nr. 170079 flown by Oblt Waldman
W.Nr. 500224 flown by Ofw Schrey

failed to return to base. So is 4 losses not 2.

April 4, the total was for 3 different sorties is what you stated.

JG7 reported 7 losses, 5 missing and 5 damaged. A further 23 required some sort of repairs.



On April 9 the LW Quartemaster General reported strength/servicabilty as:

LWkommando West

14. Fliegerdivision

Stab/NAG 6 at Lechfield -  0/0
2./Nag 6 at Lechfiels - 7/3

7. Jagdivision

I.KG 51 at Leipheim - 15/11
II./KG51 at Linz-Horsching - 6/2
JV 44 at Munchen-Riem - ?/?

Luftwaffe Reich

IX(J) Fliegerkorp

Stab/JG 7 at Brandenburg-Briest - 5/4
I./JG 7 at Brandenburg, Burg, Oranienburg - 41/26
III./JG 7 at Parchim, Oranienburg, Larz, Brandenburg - 30/23
I.KG(J) 54 at Zerbst - 37/21
10./NJG 11 at Burg - 9/7

So out of the known 151 262s on strength only 97 (64%) were servicable.

The April 7 sorties were by 44 from III./JG 7 and 15 from I./KG(J) 54.


Barkhorn dumped his 109 and flew Fw 190s with JG 6 before flying the 262.

[MiloMorai]

Since this thread is suppose to be about the Spit/109 and Barbi likes to harp on the massive size of the Spit XIVs radiators I did some measurements. The drawings are not the best, so if any have good drawing, could they post them.

The numbers I got were 504 sqin for the Spit and 494 sqin for the K-4. These numbers are for the radiator-coolant 'box(es)' as seen in a front view.

Note that beside the coolant radiators, the Spit also had the intercooler and oil cooler in the 'boxes'. The 109K-4 had 2 coolant radiators and a oil cooler under the nose.

[Angus]

Oh, dear, this thread is so hot I can heat up the house with it.
Well, for starters:
"Maybe that`s why the all-time top 3 fighter pilots of the world all 109 pilots : Hartman, Barkhorn and Rall.  Spitty pilots? Somewhere at the bottom of that list... "

Well, Rall actually said he rather preferred the wings of the Spitfire.
Look at my sig anyway....

So, it's not about aircraft any more? It's about Aces? Their kills?
How about their skills? Their opportunities? Some allied pilots flew an entire tour of duty without ever seeing an enemy aircraft.
Many allied aces hardly ever saw the number that Hartmann or Barkhorn, or Rall shot down.
This is of course an issue for a thread. "Ace opportunities"

Then here I have a cookie for you, something 109E-SpitI related, also Ace related.

I have two examples of clashes between 1 on 1 and then 2 on 2.

Robert Stanford Tuck met Adolf Galland in the air. They shot down each other's wingmen. Galland ran.

Mölders had a scruffle with A.G.Malan. Malan outmaneuvered Mölders and shot him down.

Cookie delivered

[Furball]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
the confidence an aircraft instills in the pilot when he is going into combat is what matters.

Maybe that`s why the all-time top 3 fighter pilots of the world all 109 pilots : Hartman, Barkhorn and Rall. Spitty pilots? Somewhere at the bottom of that list...

Funny these references to quotes from never-named pilots.. Funny I have never seen any actual 109 pilot criticize the 109 as a fighter. Werner Moelders believed the Spitfire was miserable as a fighter, only one class better than the Hurricane, and from what RAF pilots said, well, hmm, Johnson said they were close, sometimes one gaining the advantage then the other, Godwin, another Spitty pilot didn`t go as far, but admitted it was 'almost as good' as his own ride. Combine what they say and you got it about right. Moelders flew all three, and knocked down 25 Spits himself. Perhaps Johnson also flew the 109, and maybe knocked down a dozen, I don`t know how many.

That`s so far about pilot opinions. The combat record is different. Many 109 pilots shot down more of just Spitfires in a few months than the combined score of the best Spitty pilots, containing very plane type. If you look at the Spitty`s combat record vs. the 109 over Dunkirk, England, and Africa, it doesn`t shine either. Makes you understand why it is right to refer to the 109 as a 'Jaeger' ('Hunter').

Yep paper performance is one thing, combat record is another.

Johnnie Johnson shot down 38 single engined fighters, not sure how that breaks up 109/190 though.

Its hard to get victories when the airforce you are supposed to be fighting is nowhere to be seen.  Allied pilots could go through entire combat tours and see German aircraft 2 or 3 times.

How many 109's were made?  how many were lost?  How many pilots did the 109 kill?  How many 109's failed due to sabotage on the production line due to forced labour?

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Kurfürst

Yep paper performance is one thing, combat record is another.

I'm sure they need you to champion them in the high pitched screech you've so far exhibited in this thread. It wouldn't embarrass them to see you carrying on one bit. Nope. Not ... one ... bit.