Lost Birds of WW2

[Wraith]

Birds that once were, nobody heard of them...and heck, it would be fun to have them here  

Lets start the list:

Bell P-63 Kingcobra

"During the development of the Bell P-39 Airacobra it was decided to build a larger and more powerful version for use in a close-support fighter-bomber role. The result was the P-63 Kingcobra, which was similar in layout to the P-39, but it was larger, had a more powerful engine, and had a different tail design. Initial deliveries began in October 1943, and by the time production ended in 1945 more than 3,300 Kingcobras had been built in several versions. The great majority (more than 2,400) were supplied to the USSR under the Lend-Lease program, and about 300 went to the Free French. Very few of the P-63s were delivered to the USAAF, and it is believed that none were used operationally by that service"

Type:           close-support fighter/fighter-bomber
Crew:           1, Pilot
Armament:       one 37mm M4 cannon, (HOLY SMOKES!   )

                four .50 cal machine guns,
                up to three 522 lb. bombs

Specifications:
        Length:         32' 8" (9.96 m)
        Height:         12' 7" (3.84 m)
        Wingspan:       38' 4" (11.68 m)
        Wing area:      248  sq. ft (23.04 sq. m)
        Empty Weight:   6375 lbs (2892 kg)
        Takeoff Weight: 10,500 lbs (4763 kg) maximum

Propulsion:
        No. of Engines: 1
        Powerplant:     Allison V-1710-93 inline
        Horsepower:     1325 hp

Performance:
        Range:          450 miles (724 km) w/ weapons
        Max Speed:      410 mph (660 km/hr)
        Ceiling:        43,000 ft (13,110 m)

Consolidated B-32 Dominator :

The Dominator was designed by Consolidated to meet an Air Force specification that also resulted in the competing Boeing B-29 Superfortress. Each company won contracts to produce aircraft, but Consolidated ran into problems with the B-32 development. Like the B-29, the B-32 had pressurized crew compartments and remotely-controlled gun turrets. When the production examples of the B-32 were delivered in November 1944, however, these two features had been deleted from the aircraft. Only 15 aircraft were to become operational before VJ-Day (plus another 40 training examples), but at the end of the war all versions were very soon withdrawn from service

Type:      long range strategic bomber
Crew:      8
Armament:    two 20mm cannon (one in nose, one in tail)
      four .50 cal machine guns
      up to 20,000 lbs. of bombs

Specifications:
   Length:           83' 1" (25.32 m)
   Height:           33' 0" (10.06 m)
   Wingspan:         135' 0" (41.15 m)
   Wing area:   1422 sq. ft (132.10 sq. m)
   Empty Weight:     60,272 lb (27,229 kg)
   Max Weight:    111,500 lb (50,576 kg) max at takeoff

Propulsion:    
   No. of Engines:   4
   Powerplant:       Wright R-3350-23 Cyclone radial
   Horsepower:   2200 hp each

Performance:    
   Range w/max bombload:    800 miles (1287 km)
   Max Range:    3800 miles (6115 km)
   Cruise Speed:   (not listed)
   Max Speed:      357 mph ( 575 km/h) at 25000 ft
   Ceiling:          35,000 ft (10,760 m)


Lockheed B-34 / PV-1 Ventura / PV-2 Harpoon

The early success of the Lockheed Hudson resulted in the development of a more advanced design for the British, to be named the B-34. These first entered service in October 1942. Later designated the Ventura I, the new aircraft differed from the Hudson in having a wider and deeper fuselage with a length increase of 16%, more powerful engines, the introduction of a proper ventral gun position, and a larger bomb bay. As aircraft were transferred between the Lend-Lease program, the USAAF, and the U.S. Navy, designations went from B-34 to R-37 to B-37 to PV-3. The Navy received it's first quantities in December 1942 as the PV-1 (Ventura). In June 1943 the Navy ordered a new version under the designation PV-2 and with the name Harpoon. This version had the wingspan increased by 9 feet, increased fuel capacity, greater fin and rudder area, and improved armament (five .50 cal forward firing machine guns in the nose, two 50 cal machine guns in both dorsal turret and ventral position, and up to four 1000 lb. bombs internally with two 1000 lb. bombs externally). The PV-2 served primarily in the Pacific theater, and was well-used until the end of the war.

Type:      medium bomber
Crew:      4-5
Armament(B-34): two forward firing .50 cal machine guns
      six .30 cal machine guns on flex mounts
      up to 2500 lbs. of bombs in bomb bay

Specifications:
   Length:           51' 5" (15.67 m)
   Height:           11' 11" (3.63 m)
   Wingspan:         65' 6" (19.96 m)
   Wing area:   551 sq. ft (51.19 sq. m)
   Empty Weight:     17,275 lb (7836 kg)
   Max Weight:    27,250 lb (12,360 kg) max at takeoff

Propulsion (B-34A):    
   No. of Engines:   2
   Powerplant:       Pratt & Whitney R-2800-31 Double Wasp radial
   Powerplant:       Wright R-1860-52 Cyclone radial
   Horsepower:   2000 hp each

Performance:    
   Range:      950 miles (1529 km)
   Cruise Speed:   230 mph ( 370 km/h)
   Max Speed:      315 mph ( 507 km/h) at 15,500 ft
   Ceiling:          24,000 ft (7315 m)

Martin 187 Baltimore :

The Martin Baltimore was developed from it's predecessor the Martin 167 Maryland to meet specific British requirements. It was used with distinction by a number of Allied air forces in Europe, and was liked by it's pilots for its superior performance and great structural strength. One drawback that it shared with the Maryland was the very narrow fuselage, which made it virtually impossible for crew members to change position in flight if injured

Type:      twin-engined light bomber
Crew:      4
Armament:    four .303 inch machine guns in wings
      2-4 .303 inch machine guns in dorsal turret
      two .30 inch machine guns in ventral position
      up to 2,000 lbs. of bombs


Specifications:
   Length:           48' 5.75" (14.78 m)
   Height:           17' 9" (5.41 m)
   Wingspan:         61' 4" (18.69 m)
   Wing area:   538.5 sq. ft (50.03 sq. m)
   Empty Weight:     15,460 lb (7013 kg)
   Max Weight:    22,600 lb (10,521 kg) max at takeoff

Propulsion:    
   No. of Engines:   2
   Powerplant:       Wright GR-2600-A5B Cyclone 14 radial
   Horsepower:   1660 hp each

Performance:    
   Range:      1082 miles (1741 km)
   Cruise Speed:   225 mph ( 362 km/h)
   Max Speed:      305 mph ( 491 km/h) at 11,500 ft
   Ceiling:          23,300 ft (7100 m)

Curtiss SB2C Helldiver

Like it's predecessor (the SBC biplane dive bomber by Curtiss), the SB2C is also called the Helldiver. The SB2C is the better known Helldiver of the two, mainly due to it's combat use in the last half of WWII. The SB2C is also known by the nickname "Big Tailed Beast" and a few other names by those who flew it. The Helldiver replaced the aging Douglas Dauntless as the dive bomber of the US Navy, though initial teething problems left many wishing they had kept their dependable Dauntlesses. By the war's end, however, the SB2C was proving it's worth. The Helldiver was also adopted by the Army under the designation A-25.

Type:           two-seat carrier-based scout bomber
Crew:           2: Pilot, Gunner
Armament:       two 20mm cannon in wings,
                two .30 cal machine guns in rear cockpit

Specifications:
        Length:         36' 8: (10.97 m)
        Height:         13' 2" (4.01 m
        Wignspan:       49' 9" (15.16 m)
        Gross Weight:   16616 lb

Propulsion:
        No. of Engines: 1
        Powerplant:     Wright R-2600-20
        Horsepower:     1900 hp

Performance:
        Range:          1165 miles (1876 km)
        Cruise Speed:   158 mph (254 km/h)
        Max Speed:      295 mph (475 km/h)
        Ceiling:        29100 ft (8869 m)

Vultee A-31/A-35 Vengeance

Type:      two-seat dive bomber
Crew:      2
Armament:   six 0.50 cal machine guns
      up to 2,000 lbs. of bombs

Specifications:
   Length:           39' 9" (12.12 m)
   Height:           15' 4" (4.67 m)
   Wingspan:         48' 0" (14.63 m)
   Wing area:   332 sq. ft (30.84 sq. m)
   Empty Weight:     10,300 lb (4672 kg)
   Max Weight:    16,400 lb (7439 kg) max at takeoff

Propulsion:    
   No. of Engines:   1
   Powerplant:       Wright R-2600-13 Cyclone 14 radial
   Horsepower:   1700 hp

Performance:    
   Range:      2300 miles (3701 km)
   Cruise Speed:   230 mph ( 370 km/h)
   Max Speed:      279 mph ( 449 km/h) at 13,500 ft
   Ceiling:          22,300 ft (6800 m)

Bell P-39 Airacobra

The P-39 Airacobra was the first US Army fighter with tricycle landing gear, and was also unique for having it's engine placed behind the pilot in the middle of the aircraft. Other interesting features included a 37mm cannon firing through the propeller hub, and access to the cockpit via a door in the fuselage (as opposed to a moveable canopy). While not noteable as an air-to-air fighter, the P-39 served well as a ground attack aircraft, especially in the lend-lease versions provided to the Russians. About 200 P-39s originally designated for export to the British were repossessed by the USAAF, and were known as P-400s.

Type:           Fighter
Crew:           1, Pilot
Armament:       one 37mm T9 cannon,
                two .50 cal machine guns,
                four .30 cal machine guns

Specifications:
        Length:         30' 2" (9.19 m)
        Height:         11' 10" (3.61 m)
        Wingspan:       34' 0" (10.36 m)
        Wing area:      213  sq. ft (19.79 sq. m)
        Empty Weight:   6300 lbs (2857 kg)
        Gross Weight:   7650 lbs (3469 kg)
        Max Weight:     8850 lbs (4013 kg)

Propulsion:
        No. of Engines: 1
        Powerplant:     Allison V-1710-35
        Horsepower:     1150 hp

Performance:
        Range:          350 miles (563 km)
        Max Speed:      360 mph (579 km/hr)
        Climb:          2550 ft/min (777.2 m/min)
        Ceiling:        31900 ft (9722.6 m)


ROLL EM IN!  

[bloom25]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we see the p-39 (or even p-63   ) in the game at some point.  I know that the p-39 was not well liked by US pilots because of vibration problems, as well as poor high-altitude performance.  (I can't remember whether the p-63 had the high-alt problems as well.)  These are both planes that could be competitive in the arena, and could also be used for ground attack.  (That's what the Russians used them for.)  As far as Helldivers ... well, maybe if we ever get other dive bombers like the Ju-87 (with dive siren   ), this could be the US counterpart.

B-32, those things were UGLY; they looked like a b-24 that had undergone major surgery under the knife of an intern surgeon.

bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[-lynx-]

Bloom - the Russians used Cobras for air to air combat too and with considerable success - 3rd highest scoring Soviet ace had 59 kills in it.

I don't know for sure but I think in Russia many Cobras were modified by replacing 37mm M4 in the nose with more reliable/carrying more ammo 20mm ShVAK cannon.

------------------
-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[funked]

The P-63 was an absolute monster.  It had a dual stage supercharger and water injection giving it speed performance on par with the P-51D.  At sea level it developed 1820 hp at 75" Hg.

Because it carried much less fuel internally it was a smaller, lighter aircraft and could out-climb anything in the US arsenal at the end of the war.  Only the FM2 could out-turn it.

The P-63's 37mm gun was much improved over the P-39's in reliability, and 58 rounds were carried instead of just 30 in the P-39.

But like the P-39 it had very poor range, and was unsuitable for the missions the USAAF was flying in Europe and the Pacific.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-03-2000).]

[Ghosth]

You want lost birds that no one else has ever modeled? Start with the Flying Boats.
Yeah the Short Sunderland, the Mavis, then get into the fighters on floats!

Then maybe the later war IJN planes like Jill & Judy, throw in a JU-87G (with the twin 37mm) for good measure. Heck, lets do the Condor also!

Once you have those done lets talk about REAL early war planes. Fairy Swoardfish, & Battles, Brewster Buffaloes, & A5M Claude.

 

Ohh & don't forget to give us about 5 versions of A6m's while your at it, they should be easy  


(holds up hook, smells bait, hmmm a bit old, but what the heck, good for another fish or 2.   )

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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels

[Westy]

 P-39's were only as good as the pilots flying them, essentially. Except in the PAcific. There they stood no chance against the nimble Japanese aricraft at all. Once the pilots began to use it's abilities and NOT follow pre-war doctrine they faired better.
 Here is quote from the Presidential Citation issued to the 350th FG who were STILL flying P-39's into the later part of 1944. All the way from the sands of Afrika and on into Italy!  They converted thier P-39's into ground attack (while still retaining fighter capability):

"...one flight of six P-39 dive bombers was completing an attack on enemy communications in the Grosseto-Pisa area, they were intercepted by 10 or more ME-109's and FW-190's. Gallantly ignoring the odds against them, and despite damage to their own aircraft, the P-39 pilots unhesitatingly turned into the larger hostile formation and attacked with such skill and determination that five enemy fighters were shot down, two were damaged and the remainder driven from the battle area."
 http://msawest.com/devilhawkmedcamp1.htm

 

 These guys, the 350th FG but in particular the pilots of the 345th Squadron, are heroes to me.

 - Westy

p.s. I like all the planes suggested!  

 

[Vermillion]

Like Funked said the P-63 KingCobra was a real beast, that lacked two attributes for large scale production and use for the US, range and cost of production. Otherwise this aircraft was as fast as the Mustang and much more nimble. And did I mention it has a BFG  

Its my personal favorite for the next American Aircraft, with the P-47M and F4U-4 in a tie for second.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[SharkBait]

I know Westy was at the AW con last year in Dallas where we had the privlage of getting to listen to Jack Oglevie. Jack is one of the rare pilots that really likes to talk about his war days.

I went over to his house before the convention and got to hear quite a bit more of his stories than he had time for at the convention. He was a P-39 driver due to some hi-jinks on his part and hated/loved the bird. He said the cannon was ineffective and inaccurate after 100 yards but he does have a probable kill on a U-Boat in the Med with it. Best guess is that he managed to hit the hatch in the conning tower when it was crash diving and jammed it open. I saw the official commendation for that little bit of action. They dove those beasts at 500mph into flak traps without dive breaks for pin point bombing runs.

Jack said he much preferred the P-47s that they transitioned into before the war ended. He also got a chance to get checked out in an Me-109 that made a mistaken landing at their airfield and was captured. The pilot of the 109 was the guy that checked him out in it.

Jack was a mud mover, the only air action credit he got was a damage to an Me-410 that ended up out running him. He also made the statement that nothing could turn with a P-39 as long as you didn't exceed 50'. Yup that's fifty feet.

It was a moving experience to get a chance to hear Jack tell his war stories. I know that Westy and Hi-Tech were also there so they may remember more about it if you can get them to chime in.

SB

[This message has been edited by SharkBait (edited 04-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by SharkBait (edited 04-03-2000).]

[Wraith]

Hehe, take a look at THIS weirdo:

 

Now I'd love to fly THAT! Its a Merlin powered quasi-38  

[Ozark]

Lets not forget the F7F Tigercat.  

 


Ozark

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332nd Flying Mongrels

[-ammo-]

I would be just tickled to death to get a P-40 variant. Love to have a Zero too. I would love to have more of the "staple" planes. Like a hurricane, A thunderbolt, wildcat, and more Japanese Iron

Would love to see historical terrain's soon with ships and such targets.

sounds a little like warbirds--I know. But I think HTC could make it better.

------------------
AMMO
332nd Flying Mongrels
without us the Air Force is just another scheduled Airlines

[Wraith]

OZARK! I almost forgot about that beauty! It actually flew some combat missions, so it should be on this game in the possible future right?

Whoohoo! That puppy rocks!!  

*circles HT doing the raindance* "F...7...F.... whooohooo.... F...7....F.... yeeeee!!!"

[Ozark]

I love flying IJN aircraft!  
But, Cats are COOL!  
 
We'll let HT fly the funny looking Cat.  

Ozark

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332nd Flying Mongrels

[eskimo]

My father-in-law flew the P-39 and the P-63.
He actually also flew the RP-63.  This was an unarmed, yet heavily armored P-63 that was built to be a flying manned target.  His job in this plane was to train gunners by mock attacking B-17's.  The gunners would shoot live plastic/powdered lead 30 caliber bullets at his aircraft.  When the bullets hit the plane they would turn to dust and activate a sensor that would turn on a light in the spinner.  These RP-63's were painted bright orange.  He loved both the P-39 and the P / RP-63's.  He also has time in: B-17's, B-25's, AT-11's, and trained many gunners in the back seat of AT-6's.

Personally, I would love to have an indestructable/unarmed, bright orange RP-63 that could be flown in this sim.  It would be great for training squadmates on gunnery.

eskimo

[Minotaur]

Below is one of my favorite pictures.  This F7F just looks BAD!

F7F
     

   

P-39
   

P-63
   

F6F
   

F8F
   

Enjoy!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 04-03-2000).]