Author Topic: tell me again about E state and turning radii...  (Read 1043 times)

Offline [Sg]ShotGun

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« on: March 31, 2001, 07:28:00 PM »
when one plane is being chased by another at max speeds, and of corse the rear AC is gaining.

im still confused how the rear AC can effect a smaller turn radius, to get a guns solution, compared to the front AC when the front AC executes a hard break turn to either side to the point of almost black out G tolerance?

Offline Rocket

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2001, 08:06:00 PM »
Gunna try to explain it how I see it but I don't have the fancy language to do it pretty.

A couple of things can play here.  If you have a turn fighter vs. an E fighter and the E fighter is in back. The E fighter may have a larger turn radius but can make its circle faster.  Also the guy in the back doesn't pull near the Gs in the turn as the guy in front.  Always remember this! He is in a much more energy conserving spot than you are.  
You must consider distance and rate of closure.  The more distance in between and the more time he has to react and figure a new shooting solution.
IE: you are flying in plane A. You look behind to see me in plane B.  I am closing steadly and inside of 1000yds.  You initiate a hard turn closing into black out.  I see you break hard and stay outside your turn a bit and pull above you just a hair.  About half way into my turn I roll just a bit and pull back into your six at the same distance or closer for the shot.  By adding some extra angle into the equation I have saved just a bit of E, watched to see what you will do next and then finished the shot.  The faster I am going the more seperation I give us to see what you are going to do.

For guns defense try to be unpredictable in your move.  Alot of pilots break the same way everytime.  A couple of passes and I can be there at the same time they are.  Use multiple jinks to evade the shot.  I fly the F4u-1d.  I use the fast roll rate to change directions before my opponant can and look to extend to safety or reverse places with him.  

Film a couple of sorties and if you get beat when pulling a ton of Gs and can't figure out how he got ya pop out and review the film from several angles.  This is probably the best way to see if an evasion works or is just making it easier for the other guy!

I hope some of this makes sense  

S!
Rocket

Offline Jekyll

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2001, 08:14:00 PM »
Wow.. there's about 15 different answers to this one.. but I'll jump in and take the easiest possibilities  

1.  The aircraft behind you has a greater G margin than your aircraft at that particular airspeed.  e.g.  you're in a 190, he's in a Spitfire.  You pull a max G turn and find that at your current airspeed you can pull maybe 5 G's.  If your opponent, at that same airspeed, can pull 5.5 g's he can obviously cut inside your turn and draw lead on you.

2.  Your opponent holds a turn rate advantage at the particular airspeed.  Say your best turn rate at 5g's is 20 degrees per second.  Your opponent may be able to sustain 25 degrees per second at the same airspeed, and will get around his circle much faster than you will.

3.  He's using a little more vertical in his turn than you are, possibly a high yoyo and is using the free 1G of gravity to cut inside your turn.

4.  When you break, he is doing something to displace the starting position of HIS break turn away from where you started to turn.  Confusing?  Well imagine this.. you're flying due north with an enemy in pursuit.  You do a hard break turn to the right (east).

Now if your opponent flies exactly the same flight path as you, he will have to pull the same G loading in order to stay on your flight path, right?

But what if he uses the time between when you break, and when HE has to turn, to displace his flight path a little to the west?  He could use either a barrel roll or 'vector roll', or even a rudder slip to open up your flight path.  He can then start his turn from a point OUTSIDE your initial turn circle, and thereby pull less G's to fly the same flightpath you did.  Less G's = less energy bleed, so he will have extra G available at the end of the turn to draw lead on you (assuming you are still turning).  Robert Johnson talks about this move A LOT in the book 'Thunderbolt'.  He used to use a skid away from his opponents turn to generate extra turning room.

Oh, one other thing.  Remember that in real life not all aircraft are created equal in relation to blackout onset.  The 109 and 190 series for example were renowned for the semi reclined positions for pilots, which increased their blackout tolerance.  So, for example, a Spit V pulling 6 g's might have its pilot well into blackout, whilst a 109F pulling 6g's might have its pilot suffering only the beginning of tunnel vision.  

Don't know if this is modelled in Aces High however... I think in this game blackout onset for all aircraft is identical.

OK, now over to the others to post the other 11 ways he could have done it  

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 03-31-2001).]

Offline Andy Bush

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2001, 08:26:00 PM »
ShotGun

>>how the rear AC can effect a smaller turn radius, to get a guns solution, compared to the front AC<<

A brief answer...it can't.

Not in real life at least, given your assumptions. Here's the problem.

You specified 'max speeds'...if this is the case, then the type of fighter doesn't matter. Unless one has a higher G advantage, the turn performance will be the same. Turn radius and rate are dependent on true airspeed and G...if the airspeeds are about equal and G capabilities as well, then turn performance is equal. If the attacker then pulls lead, he will by definition, overshoot.

The only way the chasing plane can turn inside the defender is to slow down. If he does that, then he will be able to fly inside the defender's larger radius. This is the classic 'arcing' attack...as in MiG-17 attacking a F-105 in a turn.

One point. A High Yo-Yo can improve the attacker's turning room problem...but only at the expense of closure.

If, in our sims, someone is turning inside you when you are fast and turning hard... and he is closing as well...then he is flying the proverbial 'uber' plane.

Andy

Offline [Sg]ShotGun

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2001, 08:32:00 PM »
if im in the spit5 and rocket is in the 109g10, my max indicated speed while running is 330..what ever...and his is of corse faster..say 341.

my 6g turn to left gives me a instintanious turn radii of 800ft, for arguments sake and his is 833.

but u say that his higher E reduces the time it takes him to complete the circle than me and therefore alows him to reduce his turn radii w/o black out???

or is he just cutting the corner and going for the snapshot??

Offline Lephturn

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2001, 08:38:00 PM »
Assuming the rear plane is faster, he can't.  

However, geometry means he doesn't have to.  Check it out:

   

See, the following plane is faster, but the trick is that he is behind the leading plane.  When the leading plane (blue) break turns, the attacker sees it and starts his turn.  By the time the attacker gets to the same place the target started his turn, he is already turning.  Geometry means that the attacker (red) does not have to turn his plane as much to get to the same place.

However, what you said is still true, and it is why the scissors work.  What happens if the target plane breaks hard the other way just as the attacker gets in guns range?

   

Because the attacker has more speed, he cannot turn as sharply as the target plane.  I put ticks accross the flight paths to indicate time periods.  Basically, if the target plane (blue) can break the other way and avoid being shot, the attacker is flying faster and cannot turn as sharply.  If the attacker takes no steps to slow down or make his flight path longer, he will overshoot the target and suddenly the roles are switched!  A true scissors situation would be where the two planes are closer in speed and performance, and it might take several turns back and forth for the target to force the attacker to overshoot.  But beware, if the attacker is paying attention he will simply use lag pursuit to make his flight path longer and stay behind, or slow his plane down to match your turn.  If he can do that, he will simply camp out on your tail and kill you when you get slow.  These hard turns will burn away your E in a gamble to suck in the attacker and try to turn the tables.

Does this make more sense?
<edit>Wow... lotsa posts got made while I figured out how to draw these lines!  I hope the combination of answers has helped.  </edit>

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

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Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-31-2001).]

Offline Andy Bush

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2001, 09:09:00 PM »
ShotGun

Given your parameters...the bandit is, in fact, 'cutting the corner and going for the snapshot'.

Andy

Offline Andy Bush

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2001, 11:58:00 AM »
Good discussion! Let's look at it again.

In the next two diagrams, I'll add to Lephturn's info.

 

   

This situation is full of 'what ifs' and 'yeah buts'. These are just simple generalizations. To get much deeper into the issue will mean that we have to specify the attacker and defender parameters a bit more closely.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 04-01-2001).]

Offline Lephturn

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2001, 07:06:00 AM »

Heh, thanks Andy.    Your illustrations are much clearer than mine, I appreciate it.

I am starting to get the hang of Paint, and hopefully mine will improve soon.  What are  you making  your diagrams with?



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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

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http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

Offline Andy Bush

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tell me again about E state and turning radii...
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2001, 07:30:00 AM »
I use Paint Shop Pro 6. This program supports all the common formats and is relatively easy to use. Most of my use of it is in editing screenshots, but I have used it to make basic diagrams with as well.

The latest version of HyperSnap, my capture utility, now has editing and drawing tools...they are simple but get the basic job done.

For more detailed work, take a look at AutoSketch...sort of a dumbed-down AutoCAD.

Andy