sore losers/timidity et al...

[DieAz]

text buffer was getting crowded, with all the kill messages.

I would like to see an after action report though.
kinda like the ones for some SEA events.

[Halo]

Good grief, that article is like a shrink session in The Sopranos.

However, glory and shame are not exclusively the verdicts of external audiences.  A person can feel glory and shame just as strongly in solo endeavors, including offline games against the computer.  Chess is one of the most obvious examples, and even solitaire.  

Solo feelings also depend on how the individual regards his or her place in the universe, e.g., whether totally alone in a godless void, or being watched over and connected to spiritual beings that might include God and even deceased relatives and friends.  

The difference is, without external audiences a person has much more latitude as to how much he or she will accept or reject the feelings of glory or shame.  It may make little difference or it may be quite important -- but the individual has total control.

With external audiences, the individual can still control to an extent how he or she feels about glory and shame, e.g., how much the external feedback is accepted or rejected.  But there now are two perceptions: the protagonist's and the audience's, which are independent although influenced by each other.

Examples abound in Aces High.  Some players don't care what others think.  Some care a lot.  Some find glory or shame all by themselves; some rely on the verdicts of others; most are somewhere in between.

[Manedew]

I recommend once that HTC add a landing message for bombers

like (playername) landed (X) victories in a (planename) of  (squadname)
and destroyed (X) objects and (X) ships/trains/convoeys

second line wouldn't be on most landings anyway if coded to not display when 0  ... most folks don't egg and kill and land. But I think would give nice 'glory' to Bombers.

The only point I really belive of this... is that AH isn't doing enough of encourgeing new players to learn.... 'protecting your young'  .... maybe we need to force squads to take in an X number of noobs  

 HTC has tried training incentives ... But never found many folks that wanted help when I  looked under that training tab- back when I used too.....maybe more devlopment there could help? (or anyone use this and find it works, from the training or trainiee side?)

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Shane
and *this,* my friends, nicely sums up almost your entire collective experience of me on ch1/200. this is what i'm "going on about." it's not the ganging, it's not the cherry picking it's not the vulching, it's not what or really how you fly...

it's the lack of effort to try harder, do better, and to steal a cliche, be all you can be.

BS call. The SUM implies the WHOLE and you've whined about some stupid stuff, at times, bro. I ain't got no problem with shame, per say .... just some peeps need to be ashamed about what they choose to whine about. Yes, ma'am ... it cuts both ways.

And THAT, monsignor Toot-n-shoot, is why your method ain't workin' too well. You'll never know how many pilots admired what ya just pulled off in the air and were thinkin about emulatin' ya .... until you typed pizzy on the open channel.

Wanna breed respect? Type as manly as ya fly. And that don't involve carrying on and having a hissy fit because things weren't fair. Don't wanna? Do whatever makes ya feel better then ... but don't try to pretend you're doing anything but.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Shane
and *this,* my friends, nicely sums up almost your entire collective experience of me on ch1/200. this is what i'm "going on about." it's not the ganging, it's not the cherry picking it's not the vulching, it's not what or really how you fly...

it's the lack of effort to try harder, do better, and to steal a cliche, be all you can be.

You have an interesting take on the point of the article, shane.  You are coming from the "macho baby seal killer" side, and using the points made by the author to justify your position.  On the other hand, I see it from a different angle--I will never be a great fighter jock, but I am a pretty good tanker, jabo driver, and bomber, and I excel at tactics.  The author points out that, to survive, the community needs to have a diverse skill (and value) set.

You value only your expertise, and look down your nose at those who don't have it.  And that's ok.  As long as we're all having fun.



shubie

[Shane]

no shubie, you see, if you're more or less a bomber pilot, all the more power to you. i don't whine about porking, i don't whine about bombing radar (except in CT when it's done out of spite, not ignorance). i don't whine about formations or low-level buffs. i don't whine about gv's and related gv issues. i don't whine about the hordes, i don't whine about resets. i don't whine about milkers or scorepotatos, altho' i mildly mock them.

but if you're gonna fly a fighter, at least try your best instead of taking that path of least resistence.

it's the ones i see that possess *something* of a clue, yet don;t try and follow thru on it.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Kweassa
This part says it all.

 Aircombat sims are by nature a pyramid. Inherently competitive and predisposition to chest thumping is written in the DNA.

 And the interesting part is while the "rarified slice of humanity" which in flight sims we can calssify as 'vets' or 'aces' seemingly promotes or motivates people to become better at the game, they never cease to give up their own place on top of the pyramidic hiearchy - those who are at the bottom levels are people they can insult, step on, crack talk, and humiliate - in the name of 'motivation'.

Well, if anyone here (and I'm sure some have, even some are/have been) has ever spent any amount of time around and conversing with real fighter pilots, they are, to say the least, chest thumping egomaniacs! To not be one can be, well, fatal.

I respected the h3ll out of those guys when I was a flight crewman in the good ol' USN. They were definitely a breed apart form every other pilot on the ship. (for the record I was an enlisted ASW guy on S3 Vikings)

No one should be surprised when this attitude translates to the flight SIM world. I don't believe that 'most' of the good pilots here believe that have a right to insult the lesser pilots in the name of motivation. To the contrary, it's been my experience in life that the insulters are usually more along the lines of wanna-bees using insults to inflate thier own egos.

We're talking about the timid pilots here. In real life the timid pilots get weeded out in flight training and sent to fly cargo planes, transports and tankers. The less aggressive pilots are sent to fly attack/bombers. It's the arrogent SOB's that fly fighters.

I agree that it makes for a community where the noobs may feel like outsiders sometimes. It's threads like the one that prompted this one that may at times set people back a bit. I know there were a few threads I read that made me a bit apprehensive until I got into the MA and read other threads here and realized that there are a lot of good people here who will help you become a better pilot. Not just in skill but in attitude too.

If pilots want to fly fighters, aggressive confidence should be encouraged. Calling people names won't do that but whining when someone asks you why you didn't engage them in a fight only makes you look like a wuss. If you have reasons why you didn't, tell them. Don't start a b!t@h session on the BB. If someone is being a total moron ignore them. That will P1$$ them off more than anything.
(but I digress)

The article here kind of left me with the feeling that the author thought that the games should be more PC. (I could be wrong but that's how it left me) I don't know about y'all but that's not what I want. In our world shame and glory can be a good thing if taken with the right attitude. I know I've shamed myself many a time in this my first full month in AH. Sunday night I  landed my first kills (3) and d@mn that felt great!

My 2 cents.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Arlo
. The SUM implies the WHOLE and you've whined about some stupid stuff, at times, bro.
Wanna breed respect? Type as manly as ya fly. And that don't involve carrying on and having a hissy fit because things weren't fair.

i see you've yet missed the point again arlo. a big ole whooooosh!

what "stupid" stuff have i whined about?

re-read this part again, slowly if you have to.

it's the lack of effort to try harder, do better, and to steal a cliche, be all you can be.

the fact that the above is ususally expressed by... you got it, ganging, cherrypicking, vulching.. all in *how* one flys, or rather in how one limits themselves to flying, not ho wthey fly per se, as in e-fighting, bnz, tnb.  I have no problem with bnz as long as the person makes an honest effort at it... it shouldn't take 37 passes to make a kill on a lower bogey.

[Tilt]

A good example of how the contrasting emphasis of Shame and Glory "modelled" the macro community and influenced the individual would be to compare the apparant persona  of an Oopsy flying AW and a Shane flying AH..............


for sure they are not the same persona

[Urchin]

The one thing I don't think that article covers is that the "shame" as a learning tool breaks down when the largest chunk of the population does things that a minority feels is "dweeby".  

For most people, at least in this game, now, stuff that would have been considered "shameful" three years ago is now considered par for the course.  

We've got people who've been flying for 2+ years that, if you believe them, can't tell which way an enemy plane is flying by looking at the icon for 5-10 seconds.  

I think it is safe to say that 3 years ago, someone like that would have been absolutely ridiculed by the community at large, now it isn't even worth a mention.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Tilt
A good example of how the contrasting emphasis of Shame and Glory "modelled" the macro community and influenced the individual would be to compare the apparant persona  of an Oopsy flying AW and a Shane flying AH..............


for sure they are not the same persona

you're right, they're not.  altho' -->OP is closer to Shane than Oopsy is.  Differences in the RR/FR arenas I guess. It's been an evolution (or devolution if you prefer) of simply seeing so many give so little effort.  it's not the noobs i go after, it's the ones who have been around long enough and yet.... and to compound the matter it's these guys who have been given the ability to form the incoming generations, passing along, what....

[Tilt]

It would be something like.......

Probably all system reports would be limited to stuff happening within  "range"

There would be no victory reports..........

System will not tell you who you shot down although you would be able to work it out because your personal "kill" or "assist" report would follow immediately after a  system "##### shot down" report.

Personal reports

Kill!

Assist!

Ditched!

Crashed!

Captured!

Bailed!

Shot down!

Landed!

System reports (maybe only sent to those within range.)

Tilt crashed (you could add ride type here)

Tilt shot down (you could add ride type here)


We see immediately that for folk to have glory they must claim it....either by a "killmacro" or by proclaiming them selves as 10 streak victors etc.

Such folk (big heads) set them selves up as targets and its fun to hunt them. However when they are really good the huters oft become the hunted. Point being that folk can attract furballs to them selves.

Further we see that all players see our failures and see that we all have failures. A bit more humility may result...........

There is the oft stated risk that "shame" induces "timid" game play....... listening to many its seems that "glory" has not avoided it either..........


repeated crash reports close together from an individual usually signifies a newbie who needs help setting off........ or setting up.

repeated shot down reports close together from an individual signifies a vulch/spawn camp in progress.....or indeed some one packing his score with a freind or a 2nd account.
 
Looking for easy kills for those victory reports becomes a little more futile so there is less motivation for daisy chains and spawn camping.

Adding the ride type would allow a little more shame if it happened to be a 262 or an la7 but less shame if it was a 202 or a Spit1


But do not worry......it will never happen here IMO. The changes above may not seem much but they so manefestly alter the psychology of the game play that HTC would never risk it...... it would be a massive gamble given the  obvious glory culture the game has built its self around.

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Urchin
The one thing I don't think that article covers is that the "shame" as a learning tool breaks down when the largest chunk of the population does things that a minority feels is "dweeby".  

For most people, at least in this game, now, stuff that would have been considered "shameful" three years ago is now considered par for the course.  

We've got people who've been flying for 2+ years that, if you believe them, can't tell which way an enemy plane is flying by looking at the icon for 5-10 seconds.  

I think it is safe to say that 3 years ago, someone like that would have been absolutely ridiculed by the community at large, now it isn't even worth a mention.

I think that comes from a general lack of effort on thier part. There are some I'm sure that see it more along the lines of a game and other like myself who see it more along the lines of flying/combat.

Ridicule can be used for good or ill.  In an I.T. Group I worked in once it was a very tough environment. We expected results and were not very tolerent  of poor performance. If you made the same errors over and over you would hear about it, in front of the group and would get ridiculed pretty good. Some people thrived in this environment but others did not.  I remember that we made one guy actually cry. Didn't mean to but that's what happened.

[Howitzer]

Originally posted by Shane
you're right, they're not.  altho' -->OP is closer to Shane than Oopsy is.  Differences in the RR/FR arenas I guess. It's been an evolution (or devolution if you prefer) of simply seeing so many give so little effort.  it's not the noobs i go after, it's the ones who have been around long enough and yet.... and to compound the matter it's these guys who have been given the ability to form the incoming generations, passing along, what....

See and that is what you don't get about me.   My point is, who died and made you pope?  Gee shane, it is awfully nice of you to take it upon yourself to help others with, what you think, are their shortcomings.  Who are you to say how they play the game?  If they want to get better, they will seek out help, if they just want to blow off steam after work without a major time investment... so be it.  But what you do in the MA, frankly benefits noone besides making yourself look like a whiny baby.  This remark:  "You geldings not bad 5 on 1"... how does that shame someone besides letting the world know you just went down in flames?  

People will comment on your skill if you have it, they will ask you for tips if they think they know what you are doing....  But you have a reputation for being a beligerant, whiny person on Ch. 200, now tell me how that invokes people to seek your assistance?  Maybe if you were in a squad, and helped the new guys learn to fly in the MA, that would be one thing... but you even fly alone, and your way of helping them is when a few of them jump you and kill you, you let the world know they killed you, and they grin from ear to ear.  Not much of a learning aid as far as I can tell....

[Urchin]

No, it is just an indication of how far the skill level, and perhaps desire, has fallen in the past 3 years.  3 years ago, most everyone was good enough that there were no 5 on 1s.  2 or 3 people could kill anyone in the game.  If you killed someone in a 5 on 1, you didn't gloat about it... hell, if you killed someone in a 2 on 1 you didn't gloat about it.  1v1 kills, sure, there were bragging rights.  

Now, a typical "ace" has the attitude of "Sure, you might be a good stick, but you die real easy just like everyone else as long as there are 5 of us, and we are in better planes, and higher.. and faster."  

I think even the transition period where the gameplay might have altered course has been passed.. figure 1.5-2 years ago someone would do "Damn.. why is it every time I run into Shane 1v1 I get my bellybutton reamed out?  Maybe he knows something I don't, and I should ask him for help."  Now it is, damn, every time I run into Shane 1v1 I die... I better bring some ****ing friends next time I guess, and fly a little higher.  

It is kind of stuck between pathetic and disgusting, in my opinion.